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Author Topic: The legality of medicine vs. religion for minors.  (Read 26773 times)
Dphins4me
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2009, 09:26:06 am »

No, I reject this oversimplification as conspiracy theory babbling.  I refuse to believe that an entire graduate school system, industry, and community of scholars, scientists and doctors are covering up the truth to make a buck.  Science requires peer review -- something that tobacco companies did not.  I have no doubt that certain pharmaceutical companies will unethically push a drug, but chemo is a whole different story.
   You have that right to reject.  I'm not saying chemo is all bad.  If found late chemo may be the only chance you have at survival.  I'm just stating that its not the only method that can work. 

You have to remember its all they have ever been taught.  I'm not saying its a mass conspiracy.  Students today are taught drugs & surgery.  From what I've been told the FDA states that only a drug or surgery can cure.  If factual, isn't it odd that they would have such a policy?   I need to do some research to see if I can actually find that policy.  If you went to school in any study, then you are going to believe what your teacher/books are telling you.  Who is funding the books is another item that would be interesting to find out.  Would you not agree?

  Worked with a guy who lived in Raleigh & had numerous friends in the medical field.  Going off what he told me their reply to him was there will never be a cure, because they are not allowed to find a cure.

Also, every heard of  Tamoxifen?  Tamoxifen is approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for the prevention of breast cancer and for the treatment of breast cancer.     

Ok let me make sure you get this straight.  Its a preventive for breast cancer.

Now one of the side effect of tamoxifen is uterus cancer. 

Ok let me make sure you understand.  The FDA has approved a medicine for the prevention of breast cancer, that can lead to uterus cancer.   This is your Gov that you are so undeniably believing would not forsake you in the name of money.

Now on what planet does this make any kind of sense?

Also, how many drugs has the FDA approved only to pull them off later because its killing people?   How much money did the companies make off the product against how much they had to pay out in damages?    The penalty is never greater than the revenue or any where close.

The Gov is about allowing companies to making money & not protecting us.  If they come up with a drug that will kill 1% of the people taking it & help the others.  They know that in time they will have to pull the drug but can make a ton of cash before the drug will get exposed. 

The Pharm industry is funding the FDA.   

Answer me this.  Which do you hear the most about?  High Triglycerides or high cholesterol being dangerous?  If you say anything other than cholesterol then I'd have to say BS.

Now we have big money being spent on preventing high cholesterol.  High Triglycerides?  You hardly hear about.  Why? If you do some research you will find high Triglycerides are dangerous.

However, how much money is being made off anti cholesterol drugs?

Guess what the one of the most well known treatments for high Triglycerides?  Fish oil / niacin ( vitamin B3  ).

Just something to make you go Hmmm.

My point in all this.  Don't simply take the establishments word on things.   The info is out there if you simply take the time to look for it.


You wouldn't be happy to see the alternative medicine numbers, because they would be ineffective or placebo. 
   Fact or opinion?  I agree that the mind can do wonders & that people can take a placebo & get better.  We truly do not understand the human body & its own ability to cure itself.

Again, it's about peer review.  When these things are tested in scientific conditions, with a control, they don't work.  ...that's why they're not medicine. 
  One question.  Who is funding these thing & what were they setting out to prove?  Find out who funds the research & you will find out what the results end up being.   Most of the research is funded by Pharm to disprove .


   If it works, it's medicine.  If it doesn't work, the results that are claimed can't be duplicated by a non-biased 3rd party, and it enters the market as "alternative medicine" that's a bunch of hocus pocus garbage.  It works for some, because of the placebo effect.  You could make patients eat pencil erasers and a certain percentage of them would miraculously go into remission.

You always hear about "I saw a study that suggested [whatever bogus claim]".  And that's fine.  But science doesn't end there.  You have to be rigorous and attempt to continue eliminating variables to disprove.  Therefore, preliminary studies are very lax, and suggest things that may not be causal.  The problem with alternative medicine is that the studies stop there, because they've been disproved at a further level.  It's bad science.
  Believe you are being a touch naive here.  Don't ever get confused the medicine is about making money.

Explain fish oil then.  Most everyone knows the health benefit of fish oil, yet its not recognized by the FDA as a Gov approved method of prevention or treatment, yet doctors constantly refer it to patients.

Don't believe me, ask around & see how many people have been told by their doctor that taking fish oil will provide numerous benefits.


By the way, the 2nd link you posted doesn't support your position.  It supports mine.  It claims that his reduction in cancer is most likely linked to radiation treatment, not the alternative medicine that he sought in Mexico.
  Was not posting it for it content.  Just posted it to show that he was still alive.

Also, it claims that his reduction was "most likely"  Well its obvious the article was written by someone like yourself who does not believe something not handed down by the Gov would work.

BTW.  Would you let someone get away with stating "most likely" here?  Don't accepted it there either. 

Also who is the 3rd party on conventional medicine?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 09:27:57 am by Dphins4me » Logged
SCFinfan
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2009, 09:45:23 am »

^^^^

Please stop.
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Buddhagirl
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2009, 11:12:41 am »

^^^^

Please stop.

I don't know why, but this just made me laugh.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2009, 11:52:00 am »


With this kind of precedent in place, it'll be an uphill battle for these parents.

Not really.  I didn't bother to read the case.  But it is an unpuplished opinion by an intermediate appeals court.  It has zero precendent value.  And even if it was a published case the Minn Supreme Court nor the US Supreme Court would be bound by it.   
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jtex316
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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2009, 12:47:55 pm »

I don't see how even consenting adults can make "fit" and "sound" decisions about their health care. At some point you have to turn the keys to the car over to the professional(s) in the field. Do regular everyday people have 6 years of graduate school and multiple years residency to be able to exactly know what treatments or what medical work they need?

I think these parents should shut the hell up and let the people who are smarter than they are save this kid.
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2009, 01:00:38 pm »

Not really.  I didn't bother to read the case.  But it is an unpuplished opinion by an intermediate appeals court.  It has zero precendent value.  And even if it was a published case the Minn Supreme Court nor the US Supreme Court would be bound by it.   

It is published. The cite which I have is: 530 N.W.2d 807 (Minn. 1995).

I highly doubt that the Minnesota Supreme Court or the Supreme Court would overturn the decision in Lundman.
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Dphins4me
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2009, 03:15:18 pm »


Please stop.
  Stop what?  Explaining that is more than one way to kill a chicken?
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2009, 03:22:19 pm »

You have to remember its all they have ever been taught.  I'm not saying its a mass conspiracy.  Students today are taught drugs & surgery.  From what I've been told the FDA states that only a drug or surgery can cure.  If factual, isn't it odd that they would have such a policy?   I need to do some research to see if I can actually find that policy.  If you went to school in any study, then you are going to believe what your teacher/books are telling you.  Who is funding the books is another item that would be interesting to find out.  Would you not agree?

I would not agree.  It sounds like conspiracy theory lunacy...the tin-foil hat kind.  Who funds the books?  Really?  You sound like a crazy person rambling on a street corner.  I find nothing relevant or rational in your entire though process, and it comes across as fear of government taken to a whole new level.

I read the rest of your post after this and it seems like more anti-government ranting than anti-medicine.  I'm not here defending the FDA.  I'm defending science and doctors, in general.  I really like the way JTex put it above.  At some point, we need to trust the professionals, because we can't individually study every single subject for 8 years.

You're also contradictory.  Just because something isn't approved by the FDA doesn't make it not medicine.  If fish oil has chemicals in it that are effective in treatment, it's medicine.  ...especially if it's suggested by your doctor, as you mention above.  I can't speak on fish oil specifically, because like mentioned above, I didn't study medicine for 8 years.

At the heart of your statement, you're suggesting that the government knows about alternative and better ways to treat cancer and other life-threatening illnesses, but because they're teamed up with pharmaceutical companies, they're intentionally pushing those ideas away because of money.  Is that accurate?

If so, that just sounds crazy to me.
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Dphins4me
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2009, 03:23:47 pm »

I don't see how even consenting adults can make "fit" and "sound" decisions about their health care.
I have to agree with this since majority of adults do not know enough or care enough until its to late, to make sound decisions about their own health, much less their health care.

At some point you have to turn the keys to the car over to the professional(s) in the field. Do regular everyday people have 6 years of graduate school and multiple years residency to be able to exactly know what treatments or what medical work they need?
  At some point you have to take the bull by the horn & fight the problem yourself & stop waiting around for someone else to fight it for you.

I think these parents should shut the hell up and let the people who are smarter than they are save this kid.
  How would you know if they are smarter?   Just because you are educated with a college degree does not mean you are capable of apply that knowledge to problems.   You can be a educated person but also be a blooming idiot.

   There are people running successful businesses that dropped out of HS better than people who graduated with MBA.
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Dphins4me
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2009, 03:37:01 pm »

I would not agree.  It sounds like conspiracy theory lunacy...the tin-foil hat kind.  Who funds the books?  Really?  You sound like a crazy person rambling on a street corner.  I find nothing relevant or rational in your entire though process, and it comes across as fear of government taken to a whole new level.
Which is why things in this country will probably never change in any form.  People want to believe the Gov is the greatest thing for this country.  Any one that speaks out against the norm is labels as such.

You do not believe the people paying for the books would not want their opinion spread?  If you gave someone 50 million dollars for research wouldn't you want their results to benefit you?

I read the rest of your post after this and it seems like more anti-government ranting than anti-medicine.  I'm not here defending the FDA.  I'm defending science and doctors, in general.  I really like the way JTex put it above.  At some point, we need to trust the professionals, because we can't individually study every single subject for 8 years.
Anti Gov, anti medicine.  Two peas in a pod.

You do not have to study for 8 Yrs.  You can find more than one doctor  who have & talk with them.  Why do you think they tell you to always get a second opinion sometimes third?

Remember a doctor gets paid a ton of cash if he cuts on you.  Not so much if he doesn't.  My sister goes to a lady who gave up her medical practice to practice holistic.

You're also contradictory.  Just because something isn't approved by the FDA doesn't make it not medicine. 
  If that is your standing opinion then we agree.

 
At the heart of your statement, you're suggesting that the government knows about alternative and better ways to treat cancer and other life-threatening illnesses, but because they're teamed up with pharmaceutical companies, they're intentionally pushing those ideas away because of money.  Is that accurate?


If so, that just sounds crazy to me.
  Why is it so out there?   Why is it so hard to believe our Gov is above doing such a thing?   Which benefits the country more?  Chemo at the cost of 250K or holistic at a lower cost. 
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2009, 01:21:44 pm »

Here's a related story (although not specifically with religion) that's in the news now:

http://www.newsnet5.com/health/19369757/detail.html

A baby is born healthy, and then develops eczema (a serious, but common, and very treatable skin condition).  They refuse to take their baby to the suggested specialist and opt for homeopathic treatment (homeopathy is hocus pocus bullshit -- fake medicine).  The baby is now dead.  ...from eczema.

They are being prosecuted.

I think it's rightfully so.
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Dphins4me
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2009, 01:38:48 pm »


A baby is born healthy, and then develops eczema (a serious, but common, and very treatable skin condition).  They refuse to take their baby to the suggested specialist and opt for homeopathic treatment (homeopathy is hocus pocus bullshit -- fake medicine).  The baby is now dead.  ...from eczema.

They are being prosecuted.
.
I think it's rightfully so.
   You are also talking about an infant with no immune system yet.  Whole new ball game there..   

Also, did the homeopathy doctor treated her correctly?   

Lets not get things confused here. People die everyday from conventional methods just as they do from homeopathic methods.    Look at how many people die from pharmaceutical drug usage.  Yet nothing it said.  Why?

Answer me this.  Had they taken her to a regular doctor & she still dies. 

Still prosecute?   

End result is the same & why is conventional medicine not prosecutable?

I'm going to venture a guess.  Because more people believe in it.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2009, 01:47:16 pm »

Quote
Also, did the homeopathy doctor treated her correctly? 

No.  He used homeopathy, which is bullshit.

Quote
Lets not get things confused here. People die everyday from conventional methods just as they do from homeopathic methods.    Look at how many people die from pharmaceutical drug usage.  Yet nothing it said.  Why?

Because conventional drugs and treatments are proven to be the best available, by the numbers.

Quote
Answer me this.  Had they taken her to a regular doctor & she still dies. 

Still prosecute?

No.
  
Quote
End result is the same & why is conventional medicine not prosecutable?

Because conventional medicine (also known as "medicine") is our proven most effective treatment.

Quote
I'm going to venture a guess.  Because more people believe in it.

It's not a matter of belief.  It's a matter of proof and research.
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Dphins4me
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2009, 03:12:35 pm »

No.  He used homeopathy, which is bullshit.
Did he treat the baby correctly using homeopathic methods?   Do remember its solely your opinion, not fact.


Because conventional drugs and treatments are proven to be the best available, by the numbers.
So why is the US so low on scale when it goes up against other nations who also use different methods? 

Says who?  Where are the comparison numbers?


No.
  So basically we get to pick & choose who we prosecute?  I guess we should just turn to the Gov & allow them to decide what medical treatment we get.

Because conventional medicine (also known as "medicine") is our proven most effective treatment.
  Do you know what is one of the biggest killers in the US?     America's healthcare-system-induced deaths are the third leading cause of the death in the U.S., after heart disease and cancer.


It's not a matter of belief.  It's a matter of proof and research.
  Do you have any idea as to how many people die every year just from taking pharmaceutical drugs correctly?  Yet, its the most proven.  If it doesn't kill you then it will heal you mentality is one I'm not sure I grasp.

Face it they have very little idea as to how a drug will react within the human body or they do & just do not care.

Did you know more people die every year from pharmaceutical drugs than illegal drugs?   Who is making the money?
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Phishfan
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2009, 04:35:41 pm »

  Do you know what is one of the biggest killers in the US?     America's healthcare-system-induced deaths are the third leading cause of the death in the U.S., after heart disease and cancer.

 

You are leaving out that they do not record the differences in these deaths. How many of these are from overdoses by people abusing the drugs rather than taking them responsibly?
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