The legality of medicine vs. religion for minors.

[Dphins4me]

Geez can we not double post Back,to Back,to Back,to Back,to back,to back?

Sorry.  Actually trying not to.

Guess this is another.

[run_to_win]

Yes and scientists knew the earth was not the center of the earth but because of wrongly  held beliefd by people in power, it was self suppressed by a real fear of reprisal.

You mean like scientists who haven't bought into global warming? 

[Spider-Dan]

Why would you not wonder if they are not feeding you a line on some things?  They are motivated by profit since they are a business who's stockholders want a return on their investment.

And what, exactly, are the makers of homeopathy products motivated by?  Let me guess, they are motivated by a sense of duty to humanity?

Have you not notice the explosion of cost from the industry since they paid off the Gov to allow them to advertise their drugs on TV & mags.

You mean the explosion of cost from "before the pharmaceutical industry existed" (i.e. mid 20th century) to "after the pharmaceutical industry started existing"?

You're right... pharmaceuticals were a lot cheaper when they weren't invented yet.

When is the last time you visited a doctor & did not see a Pharm rep not enter or exit the office?

Every time I've went to my doctor, ever?

Friends daughter was put on a new medicine & they charged a high price for it when all they did was rearrange the molecules from an older medicine & add basically a placebo  to it.  When they could have prescribed the older cheaper medicine.  The fathers brother is a Pharmacist is how I know this.

Is your friend's daughter's father's brother the attending physician?  Did he examine her?  Is he even qualified to examine her?

"Rearrange the molecules" in table salt and you get a highly toxic gas and an explosive metal.  Different molecules do different things.

[Homeopathy is] not regulate because ( Wait for it) the Gov would have to acknowledge they can work.. 

Chicken or the egg?  Again, you act like:

a) homeopathy makers are not in it for the money (I assure you that their profit margins are much higher than any pharmco, as they pay zero for clinical trials, they don't have to deal with the FDA, and 99.999999999999999999%* of their product is straight water)

b) if homeopathy actually worked, the pharmcos would not be able to monetize it

That is the great thing about the internet.  You can claim anything you want to claim & no one can disprove you.

[...]

Can't say I know the answers to both, but one is about the dilution of the substance.

So let me proceed to explain to you what you are promoting.

A 20C solution means that you take one part "active ingredient" (e.g. arsenic) and ninety nine parts inactive ingredient (e.g. water) and mix them together.  Take one part of the resulting solution, and mix it with ninety nine parts inactive ingredient again.  Repeat until you have diluted a total of 20 times.

I'm going to guess that you don't know a whole lot about chemistry.  So let's just say that when you dilute something to that degree, it is extremely unlikely that you have even one molecule of the original substance (12C is the point where the diluent statistically contains zero molecules of the original substance).  A homeopathy professional will tell you that a 100C dilution is more powerful than a 10C solution.  Are you starting to understand the problem now?

There was a time Chiropractic care was consider something done by a quack.  Acupuncture is another.  However, both have become much larger & more accepted today then every before.  Why?  Because they work.

Chiropractic is no more effective than massage therapy; specifically, the original idea behind chiropractic (misalignments in the spine cause ailments all over the body, including, for example, varicose veins) has been completely and thoroughly discredited.

Acupuncture has been shown, in some studies, to have an effect beyond that of a placebo.  However, this effect had nothing to do with where the acupuncturists SAID the needles should be placed, and correlated simply and directly to whether needles were inserted at all.  Again, the fundamental tenets behind acupuncture (redirection of chi lines in the body) has been thoroughly discredited.

You two believe man knows more than nature.

I believe nature knows more than man.

And how was the life expectancy of man when nature was solely in charge?

*This number is not a guess or an exaggeration.  It is the exact percentage of water in a 10C solution, which is on the low end of a homeopathic dilution; many products are 100C.

[bsmooth]

Just to clarify Spider. Are you saying going to a chiropractor is wasting money?

[Spider-Dan]

That depends.

If you are going there for back or neck pain, and your treatments help your back or neck pain, then fine.  It's basically no different than going to a masseuse or some other kind of physical therapist.

If, however, you are going to a chiropractor because you have carpal tunnel, or sinus congestion, or acid reflux, or varicose veins, then you might as well set your money on fire.

[Dphins4me]

And what, exactly, are the makers of homeopathy products motivated by?  Let me guess, they are motivated by a sense of duty to humanity?

No, but they are not paying off Gov officials to pass laws that make the FDA go after Cheerios.

You mean the explosion of cost from "before the pharmaceutical industry existed" (i.e. mid 20th century) to "after the pharmaceutical industry started existing"?

You're right... pharmaceuticals were a lot cheaper when they weren't invented yet.

How the hell did you come up with that reply? 
I point blank said one drug ads were allowed on TV.  How do you go from that to before the pharmaceutical industry existed? 

Unless you were unaware that drug ads have not always been the norm for a TV commercial.

Is your friend's daughter's father's brother the attending physician?  Did he examine her?  Is he even qualified to examine her?

Nope, but he knew his job ( That is what a Pharmacist is trained to know ) & what the difference between the two drugs were.    A simple call to the doctor got the prescription changed at a much lower cost to every one, but less revenue to the drug industry.  So I figure the doctor knew he was busted on that one.

"Rearrange the molecules" in table salt and you get a highly toxic gas and an explosive metal.  Different molecules do different things.

Well if I ever have a need to do that with table salt then I know who to come ask about it.

a) homeopathy makers are not in it for the money (I assure you that their profit margins are much higher than any pharmco, as they pay zero for clinical trials, they don't have to deal with the FDA, and 99.999999999999999999%* of their product is straight water)

Yea, that FDA is a tough one to get something by.

A 20C solution means that you take one part "active ingredient" (e.g. arsenic) and ninety nine parts inactive ingredient (e.g. water) and mix them together.  Take one part of the resulting solution, and mix it with ninety nine parts inactive ingredient again.  Repeat until you have diluted a total of 20 times.

Wikipedia?

I'm going to guess that you don't know a whole lot about chemistry.

  I know absolutely nothing.  I simply work in the chemical industry.

 So let's just say that when you dilute something to that degree, it is extremely unlikely that you have even one molecule of the original substance (12C is the point where the diluent statistically contains zero molecules of the original substance).  A homeopathy professional will tell you that a 100C dilution is more powerful than a 10C solution.  Are you starting to understand the problem now?

2 parts per million of something is enough to warrant a concern where I work.  Yet there is hardly any of the original material in it.

 A small part of something can have a tremendous effect on the human body..  Again 2 parts per million. That means for million molecules 2 are a organic.    50 parts per million is you had better get the F out of there or you are going to end up in the hospital..  100 parts per million & if you stick around ( Which you cannot because you cannot breath ) & your odds of death are greatly increased.

So tell me again how a small amount of a substance is nothing.  I love reading this.

Chiropractic is no more effective than massage therapy; specifically, the original idea behind chiropractic (misalignments in the spine cause ailments all over the body, including, for example, varicose veins) has been completely and thoroughly discredited.

  Don't care about that.  Just saying back in the '80s they were considered quacks.

Acupuncture has been shown, in some studies, to have an effect beyond that of a placebo.  However, this effect had nothing to do with where the acupuncturists SAID the needles should be placed, and correlated simply and directly to whether needles were inserted at all.  Again, the fundamental tenets behind acupuncture (redirection of chi lines in the body) has been thoroughly discredited..

Discredited by who?    All I know is it worked on my shoulder & neck & several other people I know who have had it.  When he inserted a needle into my shoulder I could feel something going on in my shoulder.  After 3 visits my shoulder had full range after 5 YRs of not having full range & pain.  Guess it was all a well timed placebo effect.   However, you have your studies to fall back on.   I know first hand.

And how was the life expectancy of man when nature was solely in charge?.

Did you ever think that maybe we were not meant to live as long as we are?   We are living longer.  With more sickness, more problems & more drugs.

Its human nature to want to prolong death.

If you are going there for back or neck pain, and your treatments help your back or neck pain, then fine.  It's basically no different than going to a masseuse or some other kind of physical therapist.

  Do you know that chiropractors have more education of the human body than a doctor?   

It's basically no different than going to a masseuse or some other kind of physical therapist.

  To clarify.   Is this your opinion or has there been a study on it that you can quote?

[Spider-Dan]

No, but they are not paying off Gov officials to pass laws that make the FDA go after Cheerios.

1. We should distrust the pharmcos because they are motivated by profit.
2. The makers of homeopathic products are equally motivated by profit.
3. ??
4. Homeopathic products are, therefore, acceptable.

I point blank said one drug ads were allowed on TV.

You also said in print.  To my knowledge, print advertising predates the pharmaceutical industry by several hundred years.

Nope, but he knew his job ( That is what a Pharmacist is trained to know ) & what the difference between the two drugs were.    A simple call to the doctor got the prescription changed at a much lower cost to every one, but less revenue to the drug industry.  So I figure the doctor knew he was busted on that one.

What use is it to know what the differences between drug A and drug B are when you have no idea what the actual medical diagnosis is?

If an electrical engineer knows the difference between an ignition coil and a sparkplug, and a mechanic tells you that you need a new ignition coil, on what grounds can an electrical engineer say "just buy new sparkplugs instead, they're cheaper!" without actually examining the car?

As for why the doctor went along with it: you'd be surprised how many people "know someone in the medical industry," or just have access to Google, and suddenly decide that they know more about medicine than the doctor.  If you want to know the reason why the doctor prescribed one medicine over the other, perhaps you should try actually asking the doctor?  Again, different molecules do different things.

If I have a rash on my arm, and the doctor prescribes me an ointment for it, does that mean that soaking my arm in oatmeal won't work at all?  No.  It means that the doctor thinks that the ointment will work better.  I don't know about you, but I expect my doctor to give me the best possible solution for the problem, not the cheapest or the most holistic.  If I want to be advised of a cheap home remedy, I'll ASK him to do so.

Wikipedia?

This is not my first day at the homeopathy circus.  One newsletter that I used to read "religiously" is the JREF newsletter (now called SWIFT), which discusses homeopathy, chiropractic, acupuncture, and other such pseudoscience at great length.  Here is an entry from 2001 that discusses homeopathy in some detail.

2 parts per million of something is enough to warrant a concern where I work.  Yet there is hardly any of the original material in it.

 A small part of something can have a tremendous effect on the human body..  Again 2 parts per million. That means for million molecules 2 are a organic.    50 parts per million is you had better get the F out of there or you are going to end up in the hospital..  100 parts per million & if you stick around ( Which you cannot because you cannot breath ) & your odds of death are greatly increased.

So tell me again how a small amount of a substance is nothing.  I love reading this.

The feeling is mutual, I assure you.

You say two parts per million warrants a concern?  A homeopathic solution prepared to such a concentration would not even qualify as homeopathic; it's about 14 ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE too concentrated to be considered a legitimate homeopathic solution.

Since you claim to have a chemistry background, let me try to explain this again:  a 10C homeopathic solution (which is a lightweight, entry-level solution; remember, in homeopathy, the more you dilute something, the more potent it is purported to be) means that you have ONE part in ONE HUNDRED QUINTILLION.

Read:  1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000

You're comparing that to 2/1,000,000?  Please.

Just saying back in the '80s [chiropractors] were considered quacks.

They still are considered quacks, if they are of the strain that claims that chiropractic will prevent pancreatic cancer.

If they are of the non-fundamentalist chiropractic school that basically whitewashes chiropractic into really expensive physical therapy?  Sure, they work great.

All I know is it worked on my shoulder & neck & several other people I know who have had it.  When he inserted a needle into my shoulder I could feel something going on in my shoulder.  After 3 visits my shoulder had full range after 5 YRs of not having full range & pain.  Guess it was all a well timed placebo effect.

Is there any other kind of placebo effect?

However, you have your studies to fall back on.   I know first hand.

Funny, I said the same thing when people tried to tell me that leprechauns don't exist.

Did you ever think that maybe we were not meant to live as long as we are?

Considering that I'm an atheist, I spend very little time thinking about what we are supposedly "meant" to do.

We are living longer.  With more sickness, more problems & more drugs.

The dead never get sick, have no problems, and need no drugs.  So I guess they do have that.

Do you know that chiropractors have more education of the human body than a doctor?

Did you know that unicorns are faster than fighter jets?  True story.

[Dphins4me]

1. We should distrust the pharmcos because they are motivated by profit.
2. The makers of homeopathic products are equally motivated by profit.
3. ??
4. Homeopathic products are, therefore, acceptable.

  Just 100% to afraid to acknowledge that Pharm & the FDA are in collusion.   There is nothing wrong with being motivated by profit. 

No comment on the FDA going after Cheerios?

You also said in print.  To my knowledge, print advertising predates the pharmaceutical industry by several hundred years.

How are you twisting something to pull that comment out of your backside? 

What use is it to know what the differences between drug A and drug B are when you have no idea what the actual medical diagnosis is?

  The diagnosis is provided to the parent who relayed it to his brother.   If he were wrong then the doctor would not have changed the prescription.

If an electrical engineer knows the difference between an ignition coil and a sparkplug, and a mechanic tells you that you need a new ignition coil, on what grounds can an electrical engineer say "just buy new sparkplugs instead, they're cheaper!" without actually examining the car?

Because a ignition coil & a spark plug are not the same piece as in this case.  The fact a simple call to the doctor got the prescription changed proves it.

 To make this analogy work.  The mechanic would have told you to go by an ignition coil that was made from a new type of wire, that the ignition coil representative told him to push, when the old type of wire would work just fine.  Cost different of about 350 dollars ( A month in the medicine case )

As for why the doctor went along with it: you'd be surprised how many people "know someone in the medical industry," or just have access to Google, and suddenly decide that they know more about medicine than the doctor.  If you want to know the reason why the doctor prescribed one medicine over the other, perhaps you should try actually asking the doctor?  Again, different molecules do different things.

A Pharmacist does not know more about medicine that a doctor.  Its what they go to school for.    Do you think all a pharmacist learns in school is how to read piss poor handwriting & count?

If I have a rash on my arm, and the doctor prescribes me an ointment for it, does that mean that soaking my arm in oatmeal won't work at all?  No.  It means that the doctor thinks that the ointment will work better.  I don't know about you, but I expect my doctor to give me the best possible solution for the problem, not the cheapest or the most holistic.  If I want to be advised of a cheap home remedy, I'll ASK him to do so.

I expect my doctor to tell me what is in mine best interest.

Had a doctor want to put me on a brand new medicine at a higher cost.  When the generic ( Which is a whole other thread ) was working fine.   When I ask is something wrong that I need this new medicine?  He said no.  When I ask if the generic was not working the way it should.  He said no.  I just want you to take this medicine also. 

Read:  1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000

You're comparing that to 2/1,000,000?  Please.

     The point was.  Minute quantities of a substance can/will have an affect on the human body.  So the fact its not high dose not mean the body does not notice it.

They still are considered quacks, if they are of the strain that claims that chiropractic will prevent pancreatic cancer.

If they are of the non-fundamentalist chiropractic school that basically whitewashes chiropractic into really expensive physical therapy?  Sure, they work great.

Never heard one make such a claim & I've been going to a chiropractor since the late '80s.  I've had 5 different in my life time & know people that go to others & have never heard that claim. 

Is there any other kind of placebo effect?

Its amazing what can be written off as a placebo effect, but with conventional medicine its scientific proof. 

Even if the drug is prove to increase your chances of death.  The FDA allows it to be handed out.  On what level does that make sense?

BTW you nor Dave even acknowledge this question.  Why?

Has scientific proof ever been proven wrong years later?

Funny, I said the same thing when people tried to tell me that leprechauns don't exist.

  They do exist.  You see them on cereal boxes that is passed off as being good for you.  Even made a couple movies about the little suckers.  Damn they are mean.   Now if they would just stop moving that pot of gold.

Considering that I'm an atheist, I spend very little time thinking about what we are supposedly "meant" to do.

There lies the problem & why we will never agree.

The dead never get sick, have no problems, and need no drugs.  So I guess they do have that..

Yeap & who profits from our extended life?  People eat tasteless, void of nutrition so called  food that man makes, then need a drug to hide the results of that food with chemicals made by man.

Did you know that unicorns are faster than fighter jets?  True story.

  I'm sure you have a study done by the Unicorn assoc. of America somewhere that would prove it.   

[Spider-Dan]

Just 100% to afraid to acknowledge that Pharm & the FDA are in collusion.   There is nothing wrong with being motivated by profit.

No comment on the FDA going after Cheerios?

Link, please.

How are you twisting something to pull that comment out of your backside?

You claim that prices have exploded since drugs have started being advertised on TV and in print.  Drugs have been advertised in print since the very start, and have been advertised on TV for almost as long.

The diagnosis is provided to the parent who relayed it to his brother.   If he were wrong then the doctor would not have changed the prescription.

And if the doctor had refused to change the prescription, this would have made you and your friend more trusting of the medical industry, right?

If I tell my doctor that I want to soak my irritated arm in oatmeal instead of using a cortisone cream (remember: your friend went to the doctor with his suggestion), and the doctor doesn't think that it's going to cause any harm, OF COURSE he's going to let me!  The patient's wishes do actually count for something, you know.

A Pharmacist does not know more about medicine that a doctor.  Its what they go to school for.    Do you think all a pharmacist learns in school is how to read piss poor handwriting & count?

A pharmacist learns what the effects of drugs are.  They do not learn how to (and are not qualified to) diagnose medical conditions.  This is one of the things that separates pharmacists from, you know, actual doctors.

Had a doctor want to put me on a brand new medicine at a higher cost.  When the generic ( Which is a whole other thread ) was working fine.   When I ask is something wrong that I need this new medicine?  He said no.  When I ask if the generic was not working the way it should.  He said no.  I just want you to take this medicine also.

For some strange reason (I'm sure it's just a coincidence), you left out the part where you asked him "why?" and he explained why.  I sense that this may be somewhat relevant to the discussion.

Minute quantities of a substance can/will have an affect on the human body.  So the fact its not high dose not mean the body does not notice it.

Tell me, what is the effect of a substance in a concentration of zero parts per million?

You seem to be confusing "minute quantities" with "quantities so low as to statistically not exist at all".

Never heard one make such a claim & I've been going to a chiropractor since the late '80s.  I've had 5 different in my life time & know people that go to others & have never heard that claim.

Then you haven't done any research at all into chiropractic.  Look up the term "vertebral subluxation," or, better yet, ask your chiropractor what it means.

The founder of chiropractic, Dr. David Palmer, claimed that he cured both deafness and heart disease by adjusting the spine.

Its amazing what can be written off as a placebo effect, but with conventional medicine its scientific proof.

That's because conventional medicine uses clinical trials, which are carefully designed to eliminate placebo effects.

Even if the drug is prove to increase your chances of death.  The FDA allows it to be handed out.  On what level does that make sense?

Link, please.

Has scientific proof ever been proven wrong years later?

Of course it has.  That is the entire point of science!  New observations require that new theories are formed to account for new data.

In contrast, pseudosciences like homeopathy and chiropractic never have to change or adjust their theories, because their theories aren't based on any real data to begin with.

Yeap & who profits from our extended life?  People eat tasteless, void of nutrition so called  food that man makes, then need a drug to hide the results of that food with chemicals made by man.

If you would prefer to be dead instead, no one is forcing you to participate.  You can experience all that 16th century, all-natural, good, clean living has to offer, and enjoy a long and fruitful life well into your late 30s.  Who wants to live to 40, anyway?   You're basically useless and decrepit by that age.

[Dphins4me]

Link, please.

I know you are not incapable of doing a Google search.  I'm sure someone as smart as you can do something that simple.

You claim that prices have exploded since drugs have started being advertised on TV and in print.  Drugs have been advertised in print since the very start, and have been advertised on TV for almost as long.

  I'm not talking Tylenol here

And if the doctor had refused to change the prescription, this would have made you and your friend more trusting of the medical industry, right?

Actually no.  No one said my friend did not trust the industry.   He just had his eyes opened on that one.

If I tell my doctor that I want to soak my irritated arm in oatmeal instead of using a cortisone cream (remember: your friend went to the doctor with his suggestion), and the doctor doesn't think that it's going to cause any harm, OF COURSE he's going to let me!  The patient's wishes do actually count for something, you know.

  Am I understanding this correct.  You are equivocating oatmeal to a different pharmaceutical that is simply a older version of what was prescribed?

A pharmacist learns what the effects of drugs are.  They do not learn how to (and are not qualified to) diagnose medical conditions.  This is one of the things that separates pharmacists from, you know, actual doctors.

Years of pharmacy school also I see.

For some strange reason (I'm sure it's just a coincidence), you left out the part where you asked him "why?" and he explained why.  I sense that this may be somewhat relevant to the discussion.

  Sorry, yes I ask why.  Reply was I just think it will help you. 

Funny thing is.  When I changed my diet.  My problem went away, but again just a well timed placebo.  Its amazing what can be written off as a well timed placebo. 
I never realized how many one person can be around in such a short time period.

Tell me, what is the effect of a substance in a concentration of zero parts per million?

You seem to be confusing "minute quantities" with "quantities so low as to statistically not exist at all".

Would you take something you know would kill you in a quantity so low as to statistically not exist at all

Then you haven't done any research at all into chiropractic.  Look up the term "vertebral subluxation," or, better yet, ask your chiropractor what it means.

  See I knew you would know how to do a search.
BTW, Have you ever visited one? 

The founder of chiropractic, Dr. David Palmer, claimed that he cured both deafness and heart disease by adjusting the spine.

Maybe he did.  You cannot prove he didn't.     I'm sure he had his belief, just as these Pharm. companies had their scientific proof that their drug would not kill people.  However, people still died.

That's because conventional medicine uses clinical trials, which are carefully designed to eliminate placebo effects.

Yes, they use clinical trials. 

Link, please.

Defective Drug Side Effects 

Raptiva, a prescription drug designed to treat psoriasis has been linked to serious, potentially fatal side effects. Among the serious Raptiva side effects is progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy (PML), a disease that attacks the brain and central nervous system. In fact, the FDA issued a Raptiva warning, Feb. 19, 2009, alerting healthcare professionals and consumers of three confirmed deaths from Raptiva-caused PML.

Thank goodness for scientific data & clinical trails.  Now wonder how much money they made verses how much they are going to pay out.  I bet one will be much larger than the other.

Of course it has.  That is the entire point of science!  New observations require that new theories are formed to account for new data.

So what you are quoting today as scientific proof may be 100% incorrect in 10 Yrs or less?

So basically they are giving us their best guess based on the info they have at the time.

In contrast, pseudosciences like homeopathy and chiropractic never have to change or adjust their theories, because their theories aren't based on any real data to begin with.

  What are you calling real data?  Something with Gov support?

If you would prefer to be dead instead, no one is forcing you to participate.  You can experience all that 16th century, all-natural, good, clean living has to offer, and enjoy a long and fruitful life well into your late 30s.  Who wants to live to 40, anyway?   You're basically useless and decrepit by that age.

   Again we are back to where each put our faith.  You put your faith in man.  I put mine in God & nature.

My whole point is there can be two different ways to heal.

[Spider-Dan]

I know you are not incapable of doing a Google search.  I'm sure someone as smart as you can do something that simple.

Cliff notes: the FDA went after Cheerios for making unsupported claims about the cholesterol-lowering properties of their product.

So I guess your point is that you should be allowed to say that your product does anything and everything, as long as you are not a pharmco?  I mean, on the one hand, you are bashing pharmcos for "false representation" of their product, but on the other, you think that homeopaths and food companies can claim whatever they want with no proof required?

Am I understanding this correct.  You are equivocating oatmeal to a different pharmaceutical that is simply a older version of what was prescribed?

To be precise, I am equivocating the treatment the doctor recommended with an alternative treatment that the patient suggested.

Sorry, yes I ask why.  Reply was I just think it will help you.

Did you ask in any sort of detail as to how he thought it would help, or immediately write it off as corporate shilling?

Funny thing is.  When I changed my diet.  My problem went away, but again just a well timed placebo.  Its amazing what can be written off as a well timed placebo.

Even funnier thing:  sometimes I get sick, or pull a muscle, and do nothing in particular to help heal; I don't take any drugs or change my diet.  Yet, for some reason, I get better anyway!  Strange how that works.

Would you take something you know would kill you in a quantity so low as to statistically not exist at all

Do you realize that several homeopathic products are made with toxic chemicals like arsenic?

The fundamental idea behind homeopathy is "like cures like" (it's the source of the word homeopathy).  You take a chemical that causes the symptoms in question, water it down until it statistically does not exist, then apply/ingest this water and claim that it's a cure.

So, by design, homeopathy patients take chemicals that they know are supposed to be harmful.  Would I take a properly prepared 20C homeopathic solution of arsenic, or mercury?  Sure... like I just said, it contains NONE of the "active ingredient".

BTW, Have you ever visited [a chiropractor]?

My money is more valuable than that, so no.

Maybe he did.  You cannot prove he didn't.

Again, funny that when talking about anyone that is not a pharmco, "you can't prove it doesn't work" is your default position.

If Proctor & Gamble starts making a product tomorrow that they claim cures AIDS, is your response going to be, "well, you can't prove it doesn't..."?

So what you are quoting today as scientific proof may be 100% incorrect in 10 Yrs or less?

So basically they are giving us their best guess based on the info they have at the time.

Um, yes.  Welcome to the scientific method?

Newton's laws of motion were "the best guess based on the info available at the time".  Einstein disproved many of them later.  This does not mean that we should have simply ignored Newton from the start.

[Dphins4me]

Cliff notes: the FDA went after Cheerios for making unsupported claims about the cholesterol-lowering properties of their product.

  Lets not forget that in order to make that claim the product has to be a drug.  There is a law on that one.

Quality food ( Not that I think Cheerios is a quality food ) cannot make that claim.

So I guess your point is that you should be allowed to say that your product does anything and everything, as long as you are not a pharmco?  I mean, on the one hand, you are bashing pharmcos for "false representation" of their product, but on the other, you think that homeopaths and food companies can claim whatever they want with no proof required?

  I never said Pharm made false claims.  Their products generally work.   Even the ones that have killed people have worked on what they were designed for.

To be precise, I am equivocating the treatment the doctor recommended with an alternative treatment that the patient suggested.

The patient did not suggest it.  The Pharmacist did.

Did you ask in any sort of detail as to how he thought it would help, or immediately write it off as corporate shilling?

  His answers told me all I needed to know.

Even funnier thing:  sometimes I get sick, or pull a muscle, and do nothing in particular to help heal; I don't take any drugs or change my diet.  Yet, for some reason, I get better anyway!  Strange how that works.

Yea, because my problem & those problems go hand in hand.

Do you realize that several homeopathic products are made with toxic chemicals like arsenic?

The fundamental idea behind homeopathy is "like cures like" (it's the source of the word homeopathy).  You take a chemical that causes the symptoms in question, water it down until it statistically does not exist, then apply/ingest this water and claim that it's a cure.

So, by design, homeopathy patients take chemicals that they know are supposed to be harmful.  Would I take a properly prepared 20C homeopathic solution of arsenic, or mercury?  Sure... like I just said, it contains NONE of the "active ingredient".

My money is more valuable than that, so no.

With the way you are posting I would figure you to have at least experienced one.  Posting like you are an expert on the matter, but you have no first hand knowledge.   Where are you getting your opinion from? 

Would it be safe for me to assume you have also not been to a homeopathic doctor either?

Again, funny that when talking about anyone that is not a pharmco, "you can't prove it doesn't work" is your default position.

Just goes hand in hand with your "placebo effect" position.

If Proctor & Gamble starts making a product tomorrow that they claim cures AIDS, is your response going to be, "well, you can't prove it doesn't..."?

We know that will never happen.  Cure?  Please.

Um, yes.  Welcome to the scientific method?

Newton's laws of motion were "the best guess based on the info available at the time".  Einstein disproved many of them later.  This does not mean that we should have simply ignored Newton from the start.

   So what you are telling me is scientific proof is in fact not actual proof.  Are shall I said its the proof for the moment.

[Spider-Dan]

  Lets not forget that in order to make that claim the product has to be a drug.  There is a law on that one.

You are confusing cause and effect.

If Cheerios actually did what General Mills was claiming, it would be classified as a drug, not a food.  This is for almost exactly the same reason that Bayer cannot classify aspirin as a food; when you start doing clinical tests on the medicinal properties of your product, it ceases to be a food (eaten for sustenance) and is reclassified as a drug.  The FDA has much more stringent requirements on drugs than on food.

Without such a policy, any company could evade the FDA's drug regulation by simply claiming that their product was a food, and not a drug.

The patient did not suggest it.  The Pharmacist did.

Um, no.  As you told it, the patient suggested the change to the doctor.  Unless you are now saying that the pharmacist-family-friend consulted this doctor directly?

With the way you are posting I would figure you to have at least experienced one.  Posting like you are an expert on the matter, but you have no first hand knowledge.   Where are you getting your opinion from?

Why would I waste my money on unproven products that have no logical foundation?

You have a problem with spending your hard-earned money on expensive drugs that actually have clinical tests backing them up, yet you criticize me for not spending my money on pseudoscientific scams with no proof at all?

We know that will never happen.  Cure?  Please.

Why wouldn't they?  Remember, it doesn't have to actually work; under your philosophy, as long as "you can't prove it DOESN'T work," it's full steam ahead, right?

So what you are telling me is scientific proof is in fact not actual proof.  Are shall I said its the proof for the moment.

You are using a distorted and meaningless definition of the word "proof" that basically makes the word itself useless.

Using your twisted logic, we can't even "prove" something as simple as "a balanced diet is necessary for optimum health," because if someone invents a machine that directly transfuses nutrients into the blood at any point in the future then oops, you just got "proven" wrong!

The unknown future is not a reasonable excuse for believing in things that have already conclusively failed to work in the PRESENT.

[Dave Gray]

Dphins, your logic is unsound.  You're committing many, many logical fallacies along the way.

You're getting more and more trounced in your argument with every single post.

[Dphins4me]

  The FDA has much more stringent requirements on drugs than on food.

Considering how lax they are on drugs, that is a scary comment. 

Without such a policy, any company could evade the FDA's drug regulation by simply claiming that their product was a food, and not a drug.

Policy would not be needed if they simply went to food is either grown out of the ground or comes from an animal.  Not a lab.  Wouldn't that be simpler?

Um, no.  As you told it, the patient suggested the change to the doctor.  Unless you are now saying that the pharmacist-family-friend consulted this doctor directly?

Pharmacist called the Doctor.

Why would I waste my money on unproven products that have no logical foundation?

   Why waste you time of learning about it if you have no intention of putting it to work?  Do you really believe you know what you are posting about?

You have a problem with spending your hard-earned money on expensive drugs that actually have clinical tests backing them up,

I have a hard time spending my hard-earned money on something that odd are will be pulled off the shelf or slapped with a black box warning label telling me how taking this medication will do more harm to my body than good.

yet you criticize me for not spending my money on pseudoscientific scams with no proof at all?

Not criticizing, just find it odd that someone who quotes so much as you do would have at least experienced it at least once. 

Its like having a gay man tell me how to do a woman.  If you have never been there, do you really understand.

Why wouldn't they?  Remember, it doesn't have to actually work; under your philosophy, as long as "you can't prove it DOESN'T work," it's full steam ahead, right?.

  Any time someone provide an experience that it works, you dismiss it as placebo.  What is the difference?

You are using a distorted and meaningless definition of the word "proof" that basically makes the word itself useless.

Nothing is being distorted.  Its not scientific proof if its been proven wrong.   Its just a wrong guess that everyone took as fact.

Using your twisted logic, we can't even "prove" something as simple as "a balanced diet is necessary for optimum health," because if someone invents a machine that directly transfuses nutrients into the blood at any point in the future then oops, you just got "proven" wrong!

Is a balanced diet equal to nutrients?

The unknown future is not a reasonable excuse for believing in things that have already conclusively failed to work in the PRESENT.

  I can agree, but it should lead one to at least question.  Do they know what they think they know.  Are they correct & by the amount of drugs being pulled off the market or slapped with a black box they are not.