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Author Topic: The legality of medicine vs. religion for minors.  (Read 25858 times)
Dphins4me
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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2009, 03:26:51 am »

Dphins, your logic is unsound.  You're committing many, many logical fallacies along the way.

You're getting more and more trounced in your argument with every single post.
100% unbiased opinion I'm sure.
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Guru-In-Vegas
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I found it cheaper on the internet


« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2009, 05:04:43 am »

Dphins, I thought of you when I saw this. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzjoKhBklYg


Shout-out to my boy Dave for this show.  This shit is hilarious!!!!

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Brians Stalker
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« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2009, 10:18:10 am »

The judge just ruled on this in favor of the County.  He will order chemo.
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Dphins4me
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« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2009, 11:28:45 am »

Dphins, I thought of you when I saw this. 

  That was funny, but remember it is a edited TV show.

The judge just ruled on this in favor of the County.  He will order chemo.
Was there ever any doubt?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 11:32:20 am by Dphins4me » Logged
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2009, 12:13:31 pm »

Policy would not be needed if they simply went to food is either grown out of the ground or comes from an animal.  Not a lab.  Wouldn't that be simpler?
Congratulations!  Under your new policy, the following items are no longer classified as food:

bread
cookies
pizza
ramen
soda
muffins
burritos

In short, basically every item in the grocery store that isn't produce, meat, eggs, milk, or juice.

Yeah, that's a lot simpler.

Quote
Why waste you time of learning about it if you have no intention of putting it to work?
Why do you post on a site about the NFL when you have no intention of playing professional football?

Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is a perfectly legitimate pursuit.  Furthermore, I specifically research pseudoscience so that if someone tries to take in one of my loved ones with a scam like these, I will be prepared to refute it.

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I have a hard time spending my hard-earned money on something that odd are will be pulled off the shelf or slapped with a black box warning label telling me how taking this medication will do more harm to my body than good.
So instead, you would prefer to spend your hard-earned money on a product that will never be examined by the FDA at all.  Check.

Your problems with the pharmcos would all be resolved by disbanding the FDA and just turning a blind eye to the results.

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Its like having a gay man tell me how to do a woman.  If you have never been there, do you really understand.
I'd actually say you're more like a customer at a restaurant insisting that because you really like lasagna, you know more about how to make it than a vegetarian chef.

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Any time someone provide an experience that it works, you dismiss it as placebo.  What is the difference?
I'm glad you asked.

The difference between "placebo" and "proven effective" is that in clinical trials, they use double-blind testing specifically to eliminate the effects of a placebo.  You will notice that purveyors of quackery like homeopathy will ALWAYS come out against the horrid unfairness of double-blind testing; this is because when you actually put them to the test, their products are statistically no better than doing nothing.

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Nothing is being distorted.  Its not scientific proof if its been proven wrong.   Its just a wrong guess that everyone took as fact.
It is not a reasonable excuse to dismiss currently supported facts, just because they might be disproven at some point in the future.

In any case, you've got the comparison wrong; you're talking about dismissing ideas that have support in the PRESENT with other ideas that have already conclusively failed in the PRESENT.  The FUTURE is not particularly relevant.

Quote
Is a balanced diet equal to nutrients?
Does a diet provide something besides nutrients?
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2009, 03:33:04 pm »

100% unbiased opinion I'm sure.

It is unbiased.

I do agree with Dan on this particular content, as well, but that doesn't have to do with the argument methods.

Logical fallacies are logical fallacies, and I can (and do) recognize them whether they support my position or not.
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Dphins4me
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« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2009, 04:32:04 pm »

Congratulations!  Under your new policy, the following items are no longer classified as food:

bread
cookies
pizza
ramen
soda
muffins
burritos

In short, basically every item in the grocery store that isn't produce, meat, eggs, milk, or juice.
Basically because non of those items are basically food.  They are processed so called food loaded with sodium & sugar..   Not one of those items do the body good.


Stay on the perimeter of the store & you will be better off for it.

Yeah, that's a lot simpler.
I buy very little on the inside shelves of a grocery store.

Why do you post on a site about the NFL when you have no intention of playing professional football?
No intention or not enough talent.  Big difference.

Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is a perfectly legitimate pursuit.  Furthermore, I specifically research pseudoscience so that if someone tries to take in one of my loved ones with a scam like these, I will be prepared to refute it.
  You must have a ton of free time on your hand.  To do something this in depth for just in case scenario

So instead, you would prefer to spend your hard-earned money on a product that will never be examined by the FDA at all.  Check.
Burnt a couple of fingers today.  As I was reaching for the chemically enhanced burn ointment designed to help with the stinging.  My wife suggested I break off a piece of Aloe instead. 

I adamantly told her that Aloe could not work, because the Gov has not told us it will.

She insisted I try it.   With my eye rolling I broke off a piece of Aloe.

With such high doubt in my mind & to make her happy.  I tried it.  While rubbing the liquid that comes from the Aloe plant onto my burnt fingers telling myself the whole time this is ignorant & that no way would it possibly work since the Gov has not gave us its stamp of approval, the stinging slowly went away.  Another well time placebo effect.  Its amazing how many times a placebo effect can happen, even when you remind yourself how silly it is.  Just amazing.

BTW.  Why do you need to Gov. stamp of approval for everything you believe in or don't believe in?   I've never met anyone who considers them self intelligent needing someone else to provide validity to their opinion.

Your problems with the pharmcos would all be resolved by disbanding the FDA and just turning a blind eye to the results.
  What good is the FDA doing us.  How many more drugs to they need to allow go through only to pull them off the shelves a Yr later because people are dying from using them.  Also, how many more outbreaks of food bore illnesses in our food supply do you need before you realize how what a piss poor job the FDA is doing.

I'd be much happier if the FDA started doing what it was originally for.  Consumer protection.

I'd actually say you're more like a customer at a restaurant insisting that because you really like lasagna, you know more about how to make it than a vegetarian chef.
.
If I've made it before & he hasn't then I would know more.

The difference between "placebo" and "proven effective" is that in clinical trials, they use double-blind testing specifically to eliminate the effects of a placebo.  You will notice that purveyors of quackery like homeopathy will ALWAYS come out against the horrid unfairness of double-blind testing; this is because when you actually put them to the test, their products are statistically no better than doing nothing.
Once again.  I have never once said their drugs do not work.  I have said.  Their drugs come with some major side effects.

You have already admitted that the body can heal itself, so why is it so hard for you to believe there COULD be a natural way of helping your body heal itself?

It is not a reasonable excuse to dismiss currently supported facts, just because they might be disproven at some point in the future.

In any case, you've got the comparison wrong; you're talking about dismissing ideas that have support in the PRESENT with other ideas that have already conclusively failed in the PRESENT.  The FUTURE is not particularly relevant.
All I'm saying take everything with a grain of salt. 

Does a diet provide something besides nutrients?
  Do you consider Fiber a nutrient? 


You are confusing cause and effect.

If Cheerios actually did what General Mills was claiming, it would be classified as a drug, not a food.  This is for almost exactly the same reason that Bayer cannot classify aspirin as a food; when you start doing clinical tests on the medicinal properties of your product, it ceases to be a food (eaten for sustenance) and is reclassified as a drug.  The FDA has much more stringent requirements on drugs than on food.

Without such a policy, any company could evade the FDA's drug regulation by simply claiming that their product was a food, and not a drug.

It is unbiased.
    How can you sit there & say its unbiased?  You argued the point before SD started. 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 04:34:34 pm by Dphins4me » Logged
Dave Gray
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« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2009, 04:41:15 pm »

    How can you sit there & say its unbiased?  You argued the point before SD started. 

I believe I just explained that.

I disagree with your substance -- so I may be biased there.

But a logical fallacy in argument (whether I agree or disagree) is something different.  You are making poor arguments to support you position, with basic fallacious statements and comparisons.

The fact that your position is entirely wrong is a completely seperate matter.
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« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2009, 05:06:14 pm »

The judge just ruled on this in favor of the County.  He will order chemo.

Good.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2009, 07:26:10 pm »

Basically because non of those items are basically food.  They are processed so called food loaded with sodium & sugar..   Not one of those items do the body good.
So then, if you personally believe that overprocessed, unnatural products such as bread do not qualify as food, on what basis do you claim that Cheerios are food?

You should be APPLAUDING the FDA's statement!

Quote
No intention or not enough talent.  Big difference.
Are you going to play in the NFL at any point in the foreseeable future?
No?
Then why do you discuss it?

Quote
Burnt a couple of fingers today.  As I was reaching for the chemically enhanced burn ointment designed to help with the stinging.  My wife suggested I break off a piece of Aloe instead.
What if your wife told you to run some cold water over it?  Or just pray for healing?

Quote
Why do you need to Gov. stamp of approval for everything you believe in or don't believe in?
I don't.

I need scientific confirmation that this product is effective, and also give me a good idea of what sort of side effects I can expect.  Luckily for me, the gov't is in the business of... making sure that pharmcos perform clinical trials to accomplish both of the aforementioned objectives.

Quote
I've never met anyone who considers them self intelligent needing someone else to provide validity to their opinion.
Funny, because I'd say that the people who are most certain of their own independent intelligence are usually the ones that are the least informed.

Quote
What good is the FDA doing us.  How many more drugs to they need to allow go through only to pull them off the shelves a Yr later because people are dying from using them.
Yes, instead, what they should be doing is not pulling them off the shelves at all.  They should just stand back and let the free market regulate itself, like they do with all the pseudoscientific claptrap that doesn't work, like reflexology and homeopathy.

That is the ticket to saving lives.

Quote
Also, how many more outbreaks of food bore illnesses in our food supply do you need before you realize how what a piss poor job the FDA is doing.
Shouting that the FDA is not doing enough at the same time that you are screaming that they are doing too much is somewhat counterproductive.

Please make up your mind.  You cannot go after them for overregulation when they tell General Mills that they need to stop trying to sell Cheerios as anti-cholesterol medication while, AT THE SAME TIME, complaining that they aren't protecting consumers enough.

Quote
If I've made it before & [the vegetarian lasagna chef] hasn't then I would know more.
Let's suppose that (being a chef) he makes it, professionally, every day.  Hell, let's suppose that it's THE ONLY THING HE EVER MAKES.

By your logic, since the chef doesn't eat it, any restaurant patron knows more about making lasagna than the chef does.

Quote
You have already admitted that the body can heal itself, so why is it so hard for you to believe there COULD be a natural way of helping your body heal itself?
How are these two things connected?

If the body can frequently heal itself with no assistance at all, how does that speak to "natural" vs. "artificial" assistance towards that end?

Why would the body care if the assistance came from a cow's teat, a tree's bark, or a laboratory tube?  How would it even be able to distinguish between those three equally non-human sources?

Quote
Do you consider Fiber a nutrient?
Um, yes?

Is this a trick question?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 07:33:38 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

Dphins4me
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« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2009, 01:11:38 am »

So then, if you personally believe that overprocessed, unnatural products such as bread do not qualify as food, on what basis do you claim that Cheerios are food?

   White bread has no redeeming quality about it.   Bread is the only thing on your list that can even be argued.    I do not think Cheerios is food.  I made that point when I brought it up..  Basically if it comes out of a box then it most likely is not food.

You should be APPLAUDING the FDA's statement!
  It’s the reasoning, not the actual statement.

Are you going to play in the NFL at any point in the foreseeable future?
No?
Then why do you discuss it?
  Because football is something I watch & played as a youth.   Now compare that to never going to a Chiropractor, but believing you are a foremost expert on it does not compare.

I need scientific confirmation that this product is effective, and also give me a good idea of what sort of side effects I can expect.  Luckily for me, the gov't is in the business of... making sure that pharmcos perform clinical trials to accomplish both of the aforementioned objectives.

 So the people making the product are also doing the testing & simply reporting to the FDA..   Where is the oversight?
 
Funny, because I'd say that the people who are most certain of their own independent intelligence are usually the ones that are the least informed.
Dang I need a smiley face that whistles.

Yes, instead, what they should be doing is not pulling them off the shelves at all.  They should just stand back and let the free market regulate itself, like they do with all the pseudoscientific claptrap that doesn't work, like reflexology and homeopathy.
  See this is where you continue to ignore things.  If the FDA did what it was designed to do, then we would have a successful agency.


That is the ticket to saving lives.
And drugs that kill are a better solution.

Shouting that the FDA is not doing enough at the same time that you are screaming that they are doing too much is somewhat counterproductive.

Please make up your mind.  You cannot go after them for overregulation when they tell General Mills that they need to stop trying to sell Cheerios as anti-cholesterol medication while, AT THE SAME TIME, complaining that they aren't protecting consumers enough.
Please do not tell me you are trying to compare a claim made by a cereal company with no oversight on conditions in plants?  General Mills claim is one of the last things the FDA needs to be concerned with.

How are these two things connected?

If the body can frequently heal itself with no assistance at all, how does that speak to "natural" vs. "artificial" assistance towards that end?

Why would the body care if the assistance came from a cow's teat, a tree's bark, or a laboratory tube?  How would it even be able to distinguish between those three equally non-human sources?
   I believe the body understands how to process things that are natural better than man made products. 

Um, yes?

Is this a trick question?
  Nope.  Just wanted to know, if you did.

We are not going to agree no matter what.

Lets let is die here.
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« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2009, 01:42:54 am »

I do not think Cheerios is food.  I made that point when I brought it up..  Basically if it comes out of a box then it most likely is not food.

I heard about a homeless dude in Los Angeles who was living in a box, and got eaten by a local rottweiler. I do believe he qualifies as food.


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Dave Gray
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« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2009, 01:47:52 am »

You don't think Cheerios is food?
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2009, 02:22:53 am »

Because football is something I watch & played as a youth.   Now compare that to never going to a Chiropractor, but believing you are a foremost expert on it does not compare.
I have had a spine for my entire life.  I am intimately familiar with it.

Therefore, by your logic, I am already just as much of an expert as any chiropractor.  Q.E.D.
 
Along the same line of thought, I have a question for you: why do male gynecologists exist?  I mean, surely they cannot tell a woman (who has possessed a vagina for her whole life) anything about the female body, right?  You must view such persons as pointless quacks.

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So the people making the product are also doing the testing & simply reporting to the FDA..   Where is the oversight?
The oversight is the whole "reporting to the FDA" part.

Quote
See this is where you continue to ignore things.  If the FDA did what it was designed to do, then we would have a successful agency.
I'd say that we do have a successful agency, particularly if you compare the results to what we had before the FDA existed.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:31:02 am by Spider-Dan » Logged

Dphins4me
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« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2009, 03:47:59 am »

I heard about a homeless dude in Los Angeles who was living in a box, and got eaten by a local rottweiler. I do believe he qualifies as food.

LOL.  Good one.
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