What if George W. Bush had done that?

[Buddhagirl]

I still don't think any of those items are policy issues. When they are, I'll be upset about it. I read every day and I try to read with a critical eye. I am not one of these blind pro-dems that you see. I'm critical of ALL politicians. Furthermore, I had nothing to say about Bush for the first couple of years. Did I think he was stupid? Yeah. Was I uber critical. Not yet?

I dont' care if presidents play golf, go on vacations, etc. I don't expect them to work without a break, so I would never criticize either of them for that. Note: I haven't seen ANY Michael Moore movies.

Calling out FAUX news? Meh. MSNBC isn't really news either. It's all commentary. However, a lot of people don't know the difference between news and ccommentary which is sad. I love Rachel Maddow, but I do get that she is doing left leaning commentary.

[JVides]

So your evidence of open mockery by the media is as comedian on a show with limited viewership on a alternate channel?
Please tell me you have more than that.

Oh, I'm sorry!  My crack research staff could only uncover this one piece of evidence of Bush being mocked in the entertainment media pre-9/11!  Let me see what else I can find in the way-back machine...

Will Ferrell ended his SNL tenure in 2002 and is famously remembered for playing George Bush as an idiot.  Given that TV seasons end in May, and he left in 2002, it's safe to assume his last show was in May of 2002.  Do you think he got more mileage from his skit A-before 9/11 or B-after? Hmmm......Is cultural icon Saturday Night Live on national network NBC enough for you?  No?  Let's see what else I can dig up...

This MAD magazine cover:  The 20 Dumbest things of the year 2000.  Who's that to the right of a naked Richard Hatch?  Bush.  2001 archive, Issue # 401  http://humor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://collectmad.com/madcoversite/covers.html

This could go on forever.  You don't rememebr?  Not my problem.  I'm not litigating the issue; I was just providing an example that I remembered easily.  I wasn't aware I needed footnotes.

[JVides]

I think you brushed on a point earlier, too: Obama has it pretty tough right now.  When things are bad, people are less likely to sweat the small stuff.  By and large, prior to 9/11, things were pretty quiet.  Economy was good, we weren't at war -- people were able to focus on the "stem cell research" issues of the time.

Obama's first year involves two wars, an economic collapse, and a potential game-changing healthcare policy.

...so, maybe that's it.  When someone brings up snubbing the Dalai Lama -- who gives a shit?

They have a name for that.  It's called "Rally around the flag"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_Round_the_Flag_Syndrome

[JVides]

That's absolutely not true at all. I'm not sure where you get this opinion. Their are plenty of countries that didn't like America before Bush was in office, and their are plenty that still do not like us.

Hey, I've lived in 6 countries.  Believe me I know that.  What I mean is that Obama is loved the world over (yes, there are exceptions).  I was only trying to explain that the reason Obama is not getting this treatment right now is because (and Dave hit it square) the country and WESTERN world (happy now?) are going through tough times and are not in the mood to hear about trivial things like golf outings and the Dalai Lama.  The media's not going to feed people news they don't want (that's why our news are so god-damned stupid and full of kids in balloons, and the going-ons of movie starlets, and bloody car crashes, etc...) and conservatives won't openly attack him (spitting in the wind).

Do you all just love taking every word I write literally, or does this happen to everyone?

[Spider-Dan]

But had say George Bush tried to kick out MSNBC from covering a pool event at any part during his term (including the day after 9/11) the entire media would be talking about it for months.

Bush's press secretary admitted that they froze out MSNBC, so I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you, there.

What about the golf point? Are we kidding ourselves for a second to think that Bush didn't get completely hounded by countless personalities for going out and playing golf? Tell me you don't remember the part in Micheal Moore's movie where he lampoons him with how he cuts the footage.

Are we seriously going to compare who had taken more vacation time in their first 10 months in office?  (For the record: GWB took the entire month of August 2001 off.)  Or are you just complaining that Obama spent a greater portion of his smaller vacations playing golf?

[Spider-Dan]

Oh, I'm sorry!  My crack research staff could only uncover this one piece of evidence of Bush being mocked in the entertainment media pre-9/11!  Let me see what else I can find in the way-back machine...

Will Ferrell ended his SNL tenure in 2002 and is famously remembered for playing George Bush as an idiot.  Given that TV seasons end in May, and he left in 2002, it's safe to assume his last show was in May of 2002.  Do you think he got more mileage from his skit A-before 9/11 or B-after?

Um, every president has someone playing them on SNL:



And all the bases were covered last year, too:


The more relevant observation is that Will Ferrell is a more talented comedian than Darrell Hammond or Fred Armisen.  To be fair, though, GWB's legendary lack of English skills basically writes the jokes by itself.  I don't think it's partisan at all to say that Reagan and GHWB (or any other presidents since the invention of recordable media) look like English professors next to GWB.

This MAD magazine cover:  The 20 Dumbest things of the year 2000.  Who's that to the right of a naked Richard Hatch?  Bush.  2001 archive, Issue # 401  http://humor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://collectmad.com/madcoversite/covers.html

This could go on forever.

Indeed, it could.

[bsmooth]

Oh, I'm sorry!  My crack research staff could only uncover this one piece of evidence of Bush being mocked in the entertainment media pre-9/11!  Let me see what else I can find in the way-back machine...

Will Ferrell ended his SNL tenure in 2002 and is famously remembered for playing George Bush as an idiot.  Given that TV seasons end in May, and he left in 2002, it's safe to assume his last show was in May of 2002.  Do you think he got more mileage from his skit A-before 9/11 or B-after? Hmmm......Is cultural icon Saturday Night Live on national network NBC enough for you?  No?  Let's see what else I can dig up...

This MAD magazine cover:  The 20 Dumbest things of the year 2000.  Who's that to the right of a naked Richard Hatch?  Bush.  2001 archive, Issue # 401  http://humor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://collectmad.com/madcoversite/covers.html

This could go on forever.  You don't rememebr?  Not my problem.  I'm not litigating the issue; I was just providing an example that I remembered easily.  I wasn't aware I needed footnotes.

Ok so you are showing comidians and other comedy/satirical publications. You have yet to show how Bush took an unfair amount of open mockery by the mainstream media( i.e. ews) as opposed to outlets whose whole exsistence is to make fun of people, especially public figures.
Do not get mad because I question the evidence you provided to support your claim.

[Phishfan]

This MAD magazine cover:  The 20 Dumbest things of the year 2000.  Who's that to the right of a naked Richard Hatch?  Bush.  2001 archive, Issue # 401  http://humor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://collectmad.com/madcoversite/covers.html

Horrible example because Bush is to the left of Richard Hatch. If you looked to the right you would see Al Gore and if you looked at the list of what they are lampooning, it is the entire election rated #1.

[JVides]

1 - to bsmooth:  WHO in the F&*K said it was "UNFAIR"?  Not me.  You think people base their opinions on public figures solely by what Tom Brokaw says?  You don't think satirists help paint the portrait?  Are you NEW here?  I'm not pissed that you asked me for "evidence", I'm pissed that you can't remember 9 years ago and act like the world kissed Bush's ass when he became president.  Those times were heavily charged, because the election had taken forever to be decided, and many Democrats felt like the election had been stolen from them.  This was fertile ground for people in the media to make fun of the incoming President.  He got no real honeymoon like most presidents get - See: Obama, Barack.  I'm pissed that I'm trying to make a very neutral argument as to why one guy gets cut some slack and the other got none and you guys, as customary, are picking on minutiae.
2 - to Phishfan - Bush is on the right side of Richard Hatch as you view the cover (to MY RIGHT) but is to Richard Hatch's left (TO HIS LEFT) as he faces you.  This is what you choose to quibble about?  The election was lampooned in the magazine, yes, but I can almost guarantee Bush was mocked for his intelligence in the issue.  Shall I Fed-Ex it to you?  I probably still have it somewhere.
3 - to Spider-Dan - Yes, every president gets mocked for something.  Bush was mocked for being stupid, and I provided examples of such mocking.  Another example, how about the Comedy Central show "That's My Bush"?  When's the last time a sitting President had a show devoted to him, and the premise was "what an idiot"?  Never!  You think satirists look for obscure ways of mocking public figures, or go for the most recognizable weakness?  Because they ALL chose stupidity, is it not a fair assessment to say that Bush was openly mocked in the ENTERTAINMENT media for being stupid?  Also, notice Obama's not being made fun of in your MAD cover; his predicament is being made light of.  There's a difference there, and it goes back to rally around the flag.  Even Fred Armison doesn't really make fun of Obama, the butt of jokes in his skits is usually the adulation Obama receives from everyone. 

I'm not saying any of this is fair or unfair!  I'm explaining that the public is not in the mood to have Obama made fun of right now, and the media and his adversaries are largely paying attention to the masses and not going after him.  That's ALL, folks!

[Phishfan]

2 - to Phishfan - Bush is on the right side of Richard Hatch as you view the cover (to MY RIGHT) but is to Richard Hatch's left (TO HIS LEFT) as he faces you.  This is what you choose to quibble about?  The election was lampooned in the magazine, yes, but I can almost guarantee Bush was mocked for his intelligence in the issue.  Shall I Fed-Ex it to you?  I probably still have it somewhere.

I really wasn't quibbling about you not knowing right from left as much as wanting to point out that Al Gore is on the right and the lampoon doesn't appear to be centered on George Bush himself as you were trying to lead us to believe. I don't know what is inside the magazine so I will take your word, but the entire election appears to be the target. GWB being a part of that would be a given since he was in the election.

[Spider-Dan]

1 - He got no real honeymoon like most presidents get - See: Obama, Barack.  I'm pissed that I'm trying to make a very neutral argument as to why one guy gets cut some slack and the other got none and you guys, as customary, are picking on minutiae.

To pretend that GWB was unfairly singled out for political reasons is dishonest; he was perceived as a dim bulb even during the 2000 campaign, but "won" because of his everyman guy-you-would-like-to-have-a-beer-with appeal.

GWB went above-and-beyond in his murdering of language, which is why there were many, many more plays on his stupidity than, say, his father.  This isn't a political thing; it's an intelligence thing.

2 - to Phishfan - Bush is on the right side of Richard Hatch as you view the cover (to MY RIGHT) but is to Richard Hatch's left (TO HIS LEFT) as he faces you.  This is what you choose to quibble about?

No, he chose to "quibble" over the fact that Gore being in the picture completely negates any point you claimed to be making by bringing up the cover.

3 - to Spider-Dan - Yes, every president gets mocked for something.  Bush was mocked for being stupid, and I provided examples of such mocking.  Another example, how about the Comedy Central show "That's My Bush"?  When's the last time a sitting President had a show devoted to him, and the premise was "what an idiot"?  Never!  You think satirists look for obscure ways of mocking public figures, or go for the most recognizable weakness?  Because they ALL chose stupidity, is it not a fair assessment to say that Bush was openly mocked in the ENTERTAINMENT media for being stupid?

Yes.  Is it not a fair assessment to say that Clinton was openly mocked in the ENTERTAINMENT media for being a womanizer?  Did GWB suffer anywhere near the same level of jokes about cigars and stained dresses?

And before you say, "But that stuff actually happened!": GWB actually said all the idiotic things (e.g. "you're working hard to put food on your family," "childrens do learn", etc.) that made people think that he's an idiot.

Even Fred Armison doesn't really make fun of Obama, the butt of jokes in his skits is usually the adulation Obama receives from everyone.

So making fun of somebody by saying that they don't actually deserve the credit they are receiving "doesn't count"?

[bsfins]

I'm surprised Spider didn't bring up Chevy Chase playing Ford....Sorry for the hijack...

[JVides]

To pretend that GWB was unfairly singled out for political reasons is dishonest; he was perceived as a dim bulb even during the 2000 campaign, but "won" because of his everyman guy-you-would-like-to-have-a-beer-with appeal.

NEVER SAID UNFAIR NEVER SAID UNFAIR NEVER SAID UNFAIR NEVER SAID UNFAIR NEVER SAID UNFAIR NEVER SAID UNFAIR.

GWB went above-and-beyond in his murdering of language, which is why there were many, many more plays on his stupidity than, say, his father.  This isn't a political thing; it's an intelligence thing.

No, it's a political thing for those who used it to their political benefit.  It's an entertainment thing to those who used it for laughs.  And it's an intelligence thing to people who actually believe that public speaking skills are indicative of intelligence.  And before YOU say it, Thomas Jefferson was noted to be a poor public speaker.  So was Theodore Roosevelt.  How'd they turn out as President?

No, he chose to "quibble" over the fact that Gore being in the picture completely negates any point you claimed to be making by bringing up the cover.

No, it doesn't negate anything, as I already mentioned that inside this issue Bush's intelligence was the butt of jokes.  Why do I know? Because my wife has subscribed since she was, like, 15.  Besides, I still brought up 4 other examples of Bush being lampooned for his "lack of intelligence" pre-9-11, which was the initial challenge to my statements.  If you want to pretend that you and yours were nothing but civil and cordial to Bush pre-9/11 so you can feign shock and dismay when Obama gets his turnabout, fine, man!  I'm not even arguing for or against that.  I was simply. trying. to. explain. that. the. climate. was. right. for. it. then. and. not. now.

Yes.  Is it not a fair assessment to say that Clinton was openly mocked in the ENTERTAINMENT media for being a womanizer?  Did GWB suffer anywhere near the same level of jokes about cigars and stained dresses?

Of course it's fair to say that!  No, Bush suffered no such jokes, because that wasn't his thing.  See, Ford got made fun of for being clumsy.  And Reagan for being old.  And Bush Sr. for his speech patterns and his barfing incident in Japan, and Clinton for womanizing and fast food binging, and...etc....That's neither here nor there.   But Clinton also got a lengthy honeymoon period, as , again, most Presidents enjoy.

So making fun of somebody by saying that they don't actually deserve the credit they are receiving "doesn't count"?

Never said that, either.  You wrote that, not me.  I said the MAD magazine cover was making fun of his predicament.  I said the SNL skits generally had to do with how people reacted to him, not with any fatal flaw that some Republican can use against him in a later election.  I never attacked your beloved party or its leader, Spider-Dan!  I was simply. trying. to. explain. that. the. climate. was. right. for. it. then. and. not. now.

And now, rather than discussing why Bush got no free pass then and, according to the article, Obama does now, Spider-Dan, here we are arguing tangentially again.  I say Obama's not being picked on because of "Rally Around the Flag" syndrome.  Do you agree, disagree, or choose to keep arguing over bullshit?

[Spider-Dan]

And it's an intelligence thing to people who actually believe that public speaking skills are indicative of intelligence.  And before YOU say it, Thomas Jefferson was noted to be a poor public speaker.  So was Theodore Roosevelt.  How'd they turn out as President?

Thomas Jefferson was an accomplished writer and founded the University of Virginia.  I don't think anyone questions his command of English (or his intelligence) because of his fear of public speaking or his poor speaking voice.

Saying that Theodore Roosevelt was "noted to be a poor public speaker" is like saying that Franklin Roosevelt was noted for his incredibly fast running or that Gerald Ford was famed for his marvelous golden locks of hair.  Teddy Roosevelt is considered to be one of the greatest orators of the 20th century.

And yes, being able to master elementary-school-level English does reflect on your intelligence.  I find it puzzling that people seem to have this belief that a poor vocabulary or the inability to form a grammatically correct simple sentence somehow does not reflect one's intelligence at all, as if one's intelligence should be measured strictly by one's character or one's ability to recite state capitals.

No, it doesn't negate anything, as I already mentioned that inside this issue Bush's intelligence was the butt of jokes.

Your original point mentioned only the cover and nothing of the content or articles.  Gore is also on the cover.  The point is null.

I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that this same issue has absolutely nothing negative to say about Al Gore inside the issue.  Otherwise, your second point would also be completely invalidated.

And now, rather than discussing why Bush got no free pass then and, according to the article, Obama does now, Spider-Dan, here we are arguing tangentially again.  I say Obama's not being picked on because of "Rally Around the Flag" syndrome.  Do you agree, disagree, or choose to keep arguing over bullshit?

I disagree completely:

- every president is picked on by comedy entertainment outlets; that is their job
- Obama has already been picked on by said comedy outlets
- Obama has suffered far, far, far worse political attacks than GWB did from Jan-Oct 2001 (and anything from Sep. 2001 to mid-2002 is idiotic to compare, since GWB enjoyed historically high approval ratings at that time)

I just fundamentally disagree with the entire premise at a foundational level.  The idea that Obama is coasting through on easy mode without criticism is just absurd.

[bsmooth]

1 - to bsmooth:  WHO in the F&*K said it was "UNFAIR"?  Not me.  You think people base their opinions on public figures solely by what Tom Brokaw says?  You don't think satirists help paint the portrait?  Are you NEW here?  I'm not pissed that you asked me for "evidence", I'm pissed that you can't remember 9 years ago and act like the world kissed Bush's ass when he became president.  Those times were heavily charged, because the election had taken forever to be decided, and many Democrats felt like the election had been stolen from them.  This was fertile ground for people in the media to make fun of the incoming President.  He got no real honeymoon like most presidents get - See: Obama, Barack.  I'm pissed that I'm trying to make a very neutral argument as to why one guy gets cut some slack and the other got none and you guys, as customary, are picking on minutiae

Hmmm we seem to remember 2001 differently. I remember a president who ran as a good ol boy, and his lack of public speaking ability kind of endeared him to many people, but by the time that quickly went away and he sounded more and more idiotic with every press conference, and the goodwill had fully worn off from 9/11, it was more than 8 months into his first term.
I do not think Obama is getting a pass from any media form as his policies and personel choices are getting attacked by pundits, and comidians. He is even made fun of on the Daily Show and the Colbert Report.
For someone who claims not to favor either party, you seem to be very sensitive to the amount of mockery that you percieved that Bush recievded in his first 8 months as compared to Obama. What would make your theory stronger would be if you could show how all presidents have been treated in their first 8 months since tv's became commonplace in homes.