Circumcision

[Dave Gray]

I listened to a podcast recently that talked about the history of circumcision and public opinion on it.  To my surprise, the rates of circumcision in the US have dropped drastically in recent years.  It used to be 3/5 boys had it done, now it's about half.

I was also surprised that female circumcision was popular in the US as well, and Blue Cross covered the procedure until the 70s, when it was made illegal.

There are some people trying to get it banned in certain states, saying that it's body mutilation, just like tattoos are illegal for babies.  Also, some medical organizations have pulled their support for the procedure.  I didn't realize that it was so split...I always assumed it was really popular everywhere in this country.

Anyway, I have said for a long time that I don't want to get my children circumcised, should I have them.  I don't think it's a good procedure, unless it's medically necessary because of abnormality.  When I said this about 10 years ago, people used to think I was a big freak.  Now, a lot of people's thoughts on it have changed.

How do you feel about it?  Would you have it done to your kids?  Why or why not?  And do you think it has any place in law?

[CF DolFan]

I had heard that.

I'm all for circumcision so it seems a little odd to me. The parents that I know who did not do it were kind of strange. They felt it was too painful for the child and would cause psycological damage that would affect them later in life. The husband had it done and oddly enough he doesn't remember a thing. Anyway to each his own.

I don't want to turn this into a religious debate but it is the basis for why we Americans do it. God required people to do it in the OT but it isn't required as a Christian because they aren't under the law.  This was one of those things that He required that was to help Jews to prosper in health and multiply.  This went along with wash your hands before you eat, can't live in a house with mold, no sex for two weeks after menses etc.  Anyway I do realize Christains are free to choose though I would expect a Jewish person is not. I do know that Muslims practice it for similar reasons.

Based on my experiences with horses and other animals I just think that it is easier to keep clean and would have it done if I had a son. I can't think of any reason not to do it. Dave what do you mean by abnormality?

[Phishfan]

Not a topic I have thought much about since I don't have kids on my radar. I think the complications of doing it are overblown by the people who oppose it. I always just assumed I would do it since that was the practice when I was a kid.

[BoSoxGrl]

For a long time I wanted to be a marriage counselor so I had to take "The psychology of human sexuality."  Along with getting a text book with a bunch of genitalia in it, we had many discussions about things like circumcision.
It is not medically necessary.  It is not any more or less clean either way.  My sister was up in the air about it with her new baby boy and finally decided not to. 
And if this were about God , Why would he put an extra piece of skin on your junk just to have it (painfully) removed?

If I have boys, they will be in tact for sure.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

There are some limited benefits such as:

A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
A reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases in men.
Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).
Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean.

There is no medical sound research that male circumcision is harmful.

While it does cause some pain or discomfort for the child so does other thing we do to infants such as give them shots for immunization against certain diseases.  While the medical benefits of circumcision are not nearly as strong as something such as say the polio vaccination.  Not doing it is not should not be thought of as a big deal.  

As for those who oppose doing it and want to make it illegal.  I am willing to bet if you dig deeper, not withstanding their claims otherwise, the majority of those who want to make it illegal also support a Constitutional Amendment to mandate Christian prayer in public schools.  And are not people who in general promote children’s rights but have latched onto a false “mutation” issue in an attempt to make the practices of Judaism illegal.   Are those who opposing it also proposing we making earrings illegal for all children under the age of 18?  The pain threshold is about equal.  

I have only witnessed one circumcision.  (I was circumcised but have no memory of the event.)  It obviously caused some pain as he began to cry.  However the crying lasted only about 2 mins and ceased almost immediately when he got into his mother’s arms.  According to his mother this is a lot quicker than he stopped crying for getting immunized or on the various times he bumped his head on the edge of the crib before they figured out to add padding to the walls of the crib.  So the pain was obviously not extreme to him as compared to the vaccinations or bumping ones head.  

That same child was also baptized about 6 months later.  (My sister married a goy.)   He was clearly traumatized by the event.  He cried for about 20 mins.  Before the baptism he loved bath time.  Afterwards he would cry once my sister would start running the water for a bath and would fight, kick and scream until it was over.  

I would NOT support legislation outlawing baptisms even though they do traumatize some children.      

With my sister’s first child, my bother-in-law not too keen on the idea of circumcision having not had one himself and believing it would cause too much pain for the child.  But he agreed to it on the compromise of both a Bris (Yiddish word and generally used to imply that it done as ceremony by a mohel and not done in a hospital by a doctor) and a baptism as a package deal.  

Having seen the effect of both the Bris (minor) and baptism (major) on his oldest son, my brother-in-law had no problem with his younger sons having a Bris as well.  (I didn’t attend these, but reports are they went the same; very brief crying that ended as soon as they got into mom’s arms)  But he was vehemently opposed to having them baptized. This caused quite a bit of conflict between him and his parents who wanted their grandsons baptized.  

Personally I think my brother-in-law overreacted regarding the baptism of his younger children and that one child just had an extreme reaction to a relatively benign event.  And my sister felt the same way and sided with her in-laws but she wasn’t going to fight him too hard on the issue given how strongly he felt and the fact she just didn’t really care that much if they got baptized.  

Both circumcision and baptism can cause some trauma or discomfort for an infant.  Circumcision has some but very limited medical benefits.  Both have strong religious importance to many families.  Neither should be regulated by the government.    

[bsfins]

So I get to blame social issues on being snipped? I'm mentally scarred? It's that simple?  Wooohoo!....

If I decide to have kids,I think it's a decision my wife and I will have....I think Snip,Snip....If my wife thinks differently, she'll probably kick my ass,and that will be the end of that discussion...

[Pappy13]

I was circumsized and we decided to have our son circumsized.  No particular reason, just decided to do it.  If you don't care one way or the other, there's really no reason that you must have it done, but if you want to do it, nothing should prevent you from having it done.  That's pretty much the hospital's take it on too.  We asked.

I don't remember being circumsized, my son doesn't either and I've never known anyone who did if they had the procedure done when they were born. I don't think the pain question should ever be in the conversation.  The only question you should ask yourself is do you want your son to be circumsized or not?  Whatever you decide, it should be your decision and no one else.

[Sunstroke]

I'd like to get a circumcision, but only if Tim Tebow does the snipping himself while wearing his old Gators uniform.

[Dave Gray]

As for those who oppose doing it and want to make it illegal.  I am willing to bet if you dig deeper, not withstanding their claims otherwise, the majority of those who want to make it illegal also support a Constitutional Amendment to mandate Christian prayer in public schools.  And are not people who in general promote children’s rights but have latched onto a false “mutation” issue in an attempt to make the practices of Judaism illegal.   Are those who opposing it also proposing we making earrings illegal for all children under the age of 18?  The pain threshold is about equal.

I would take that bet.  This isn't an anti-Jewish thing at all.  In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the vast, vast majority that are anti-circumcision are hippies.  This popped up in California.

I also don't think it's about pain.  It's about body mutilation.  Also, while it does (minimally....very minimally) reduce the chances of some diseases, it would be like cutting off your feet so that you don't get athlete's foot.  Of course you're less likely to get disease on an area once you cut it off.

If you step back and just look at what it's for, without the socialization of thinking it's a normal, natural process, it's pretty ridiculous.  The process is illegal to do in female children.  It's not medically necessary, and it's really not accurate to say that its medically advantageous either. 

It removes pleasure sensors in the penis and is permanent.  It sounds like the best argument to do it is "why not?"  That's not a good reason.

Dave what do you mean by abnormality?

The podcast I was listening gave some examples of some medical abnormalities that make the procedure medically necessary.  Imagine your foreskin as a sweater.  On rare occasions, the "neck-hole" is too small for the head to fit through.  There are other things like that that require physically altering the foreskin to function normally, just like surgery with any mis-shapen body part.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I would take that bet.  This isn't an anti-Jewish thing at all.  In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the vast, vast majority that are anti-circumcision are hippies.  This popped up in California.

You might find some hippies who are anti-circumcision and think it is a bad idea and wouldn't do it to their own children, but would not support making it illegal. 

But among the "make it illegal" group....most of them are anti-Semites. 

I have yet to meet a single hippie who supports more government intervention into people's private lives.

If you don't want to do it to your son....I fully support your personal decision.  But stay the hell out of my life. 

[Dave Gray]

If you don't want to do it to your son....I fully support your personal decision.  But stay the hell out of my life. 

I am certainly not anti-Semitic, as I'm sure you know from my years of posts on this board, but I can definitely understand supporting making the practice against the law.  It is the permanent removal of a body part for non-medical reasons.  If you want to do it to yourself, that's fine, but it's the job of society to protect children.  Like I said before, female circumcision is now illegal, for exactly the same reasons.  I am not up in arms about it, but it's pretty much socially acceptable child abuse.

You're cutting off a body part for culture's sake.  If you take a step back from your particular social and religious ties, it's easier to see it for what it is -- body mutilation.

--------

Side story:

I had a native American history teacher.  When he was only days old, his father took him to the top of some mountain and cut a big scar across the top of his head.  (It was big.  He pulled back his hair to show up.)  It was their tradition, so that no matter what, the boy would always remember where he came from.  To me, that's the same thing.  ...but it's also fucked up, and I'd gladly support laws that don't allow you to cut big scars across the top of a baby's head.

[Jim Gray]

I have a friend who was born in Cuba and was never circumcised.   A few years ago, at 40, he decided to have it done.  I am circumcised, as are both my sons; but I was shocked by this.  After it was over, I asked him if it was worth it.  He said it absolutely was.   I didn't ask for the details, but he volunteered that he felt it was cleaner and he regretted not having it done years before.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

My sister cried when she got her ears pierced.  That too is body mutilation.  Do you want to make that illegal too?

My nephew was traumatized by the baptism ceremony.  Do you want to make that illegal too?  

Or only make illegal those traditions that are not apart of your own religion/culture?  

[Pappy13]

You're cutting off a body part for culture's sake.  If you take a step back from your particular social and religious ties, it's easier to see it for what it is -- body mutilation.

And what exactly does that have to do with you?  Putting in earring studs is body mutilation.  So is getting a tattoo.  You have a tattoo?  Does your wife have earring holes?  You think I should be able to mandate whether you have them or not?

I think you need to step back and see it for what it is, a pretty harmless procedure.  From my understanding the thing with girls was mandated out because there were far more serious complications from having the procedure done than with men.

[Dave Gray]

My sister cried when she got her ears pierced.  That too is body mutilation.  Do you want to make that illegal too?

This is a slippery-slope argument that you're making.  I don't consider ear-piercing as body multilation, because it's not a permanent thing.  You are saying that it is.  Is that just to be devil's advocate or do you really believe these to be comparable.

My nephew was traumatized by the baptism ceremony.  Do you want to make that illegal too?  

You are creating a straw man argument.  I am not arguing aginst curcumsicion because of trauma.  I don't think a 2 year old baby remembers pain and have said as much.

Or only make illegal those traditions that are not apart of your own religion/culture?  

Don't do that...you know me better than that.  Curcumsision is my culture.  Every male member of my family, including my many nephews has had it done, including myself.

And what exactly does that have to do with you?  Putting in earring studs is body mutilation.  So is getting a tattoo.  You have a tattoo?  Does your wife have earring holes?  You think I should be able to mandate whether you have them or not?

I am fine with people who choose circumsision for themselves.  I just don't support it for children who can't make that choice.  I am glad you bring up tattoos.  It is illegal to tattoo your baby.  I am fine with adults doing whatever they want to their bodies.  Like I said, I don't think that earring studs is comparable to the permanent removal of a body part.  Do you really feel that those are comparable?