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Author Topic: Circumcision  (Read 13318 times)
Dave Gray
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2010, 03:01:56 pm »

With earrings you are removing skin and causing a hole in a person's body.  There isn't much difference.  

I don't believe that.  I doubt you do, either.

I'm not here debating earrings, either.  If someone thought that it was permanent scarring and wanted that to be illegal, then we can talk about it.  But that's not what's on the table.

Let's be frank, there's no health benefit.  That's not why it's done, at least.  It's done for one reason and one reason only: cultural.  That's it.

I'm not here campaigning that it be illegal.  I'm just discussing it.  I certainly understand why it would be, though, and I find very apt comparison with other forms of body modification.
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2010, 04:40:05 pm »

You DON'T want to know.  I don't believe it was ever popular in the US.  It's popular in Africa.

If you just have to know check out wikipedia.  Note that the politically correct term is Female Genital cutting or Female Genital Mutilation.  It's not called Female Circumcision anymore because it has little to do with the procedure done to males.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Wow...I think I am sorry I asked. But thanks for the infor Pappy!!!!!
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2010, 08:55:05 pm »

You DON'T want to know.  I don't believe it was ever popular in the US.  It's popular in Africa.

If you just have to know check out wikipedia.  Note that the politically correct term is Female Genital cutting or Female Genital Mutilation.  It's not called Female Circumcision anymore because it has little to do with the procedure done to males.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

There have been many stories done on it. It causes a lot of problems for women who have it done.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2010, 09:56:30 pm »

I don't believe that.  I doubt you do, either.

Actually that is what I do believe.

Quote
I'm not here debating earrings, either.  If someone thought that it was permanent scarring and wanted that to be illegal, then we can talk about it.  But that's not what's on the table.

What is I simply state “it think that earrings cause permanent scarring and harms the child and ought be illegal” and offer zero scientific evidence to support my position.  Cause if I did that I would be doing exactly what the anti-circumcise people have done. 

Quote
Let's be frank, there's no health benefit.  That's not why it's done, at least.  It's done for one reason and one reason only: cultural.  That's it.

Yes, let’s be frank.  There is limited health benefit.  Not much, but it tips the balance slightly in the favor that the child will be better off with it than without it.  But not nearly enough benefit to mandate it or call someone a bad parent for choosing not to do it. 

But you are right the overwhelming reason for doing it is cultural. 

But here is the deal.  We as a society do plenty of things for cultural reasons that have limited or zero or even negative health benefit. 

Baptism provides no health benefits to a child. 

There is significant evidence that lying to children regarding Santa, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy in fact results in the child not trusting his/her parents once he/she learns the truth.  And learns that lying is acceptable behavior. 

There is quite a bit of medical evidence to prove that feeding a baby formula instead of breast milk is not as good for the child. 

Yet in general in society we don’t interfere with the cultural decisions of the parents unless what they are doing is an unquestionable and severe harm. 

If you don’t think it is a good idea to let your kid get a sugar high each October 31st, then you as a parent can take stops to prevent that.  If you feel that allowing that Halloween night is one of the cool traditions of childhood not withstanding negative impact it has on teeth and overall health then you can permit that cultural event as a parent.

But lets be honest, Halloween is a net negative for children’s health.  We permit this cultural event.

In general as a society we don’t dictate to parents what they can and can not do culturally with their child unless it rises to a pretty significant level.  You are allowed to smoke around your children (not a good idea but permitted).  If you cross the line and teach your toddler to smoke…well then that is not permitted.

If I had children I would not lie to them about the tooth fairy, Santa or the Easter Bunny.  Okay two of them are pretty irrelevant for me.  But with the tooth fairy, I would tell my child the truth about what some parents do and why they do it, but that I prefer to be honest with my child. I would also give them the prevailing “tooth fairy rate for teeth” each time they lost a tooth so they would get the same benefit as their friends and not feel left out.  But I would not lie to them.  Because lying to your children as cultural aspect is a bad idea.

However, I am not going to try and make it illegal for other parents to engage in this stupid and harmful cultural practice.  Because it doesn’t rise to the level of harm to warrant making it illegal. 

If you are going make something illegal.  It can’t just be that it offers no benefit.  Or that It causes minor harm.  You need to prove it causes significant harm. 

But in the case of circumcision what you have is a cultural practice that goes back 5,000 years that has zero evidence of being harmful and has a small amount of evidence of being actually helpful. 

That would be like banning people from bring Xmas trees into their house cause you are worried children might get confused about forest structure. 

The only real reason to ban people from bringing trees into their living room is to interfere with the cultural of Christians.  The only real reason to ban circumcision is to interfere with the cultural of Jews. 

And teaching kids it is okay to eat candy out of their socks cause them as much harm as circumcision --- none.     
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2010, 11:34:32 pm »

The only real reason to ban circumcision is to interfere with the cultural of Jews. 

That's just not true.  I don't give one iota of thought to interfering with the culture of Jews.  I'm certain that those looking to ban it aren't Christians out to disrupt Jews.  The guy leading the charge is a gay man.  I doubt he's doing the fundamentalist Christian thing.

It's very similar to tattoos.  Some cultures tattoo their kids.  Here, it's illegal.  They are both permanent body modification that (unless there's something wrong, like infection or whatever) causes no damage.  Female circumcision was recently banned (1996).

Circumcision involves cutting off a body part for Christ's sake.  That's not something that we generally take lightly.  It's definitely a bigger deal than piercing your ears, which you claim is equivalent.  They pierce your ears at a kiosk in the mall.  I don't think they'll lop off the end of your penis there.

I think that you are extra defensive because you feel that it's an attack on your culture, but it's totally not.

Again, I'm not out to ban circumcision.  I think that the amount of fuss it would take to get it done wouldn't be worth it, it would be really hard to enforce, and I don't think it would make that much difference in the world.
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« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2010, 11:38:46 pm »

I'm circumcised but since the wife hasn't gotten knocked up yet, we haven't discussed it really.  Based on some other information, I gather she's pro circumcision.  I really don't care either way if the kid gets it or not.
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2010, 09:11:55 am »

Circumcision involves cutting off a body part for Christ's sake. 

Unless I completely misunderstand what circumcision is, it's just the removal of some skin... It's not like you're removing the entire thing. What's the big deal? No kid remembers it happening to them. Heck, if no one told them they were circumcised, I bet they wouldn't even know it happened. I think this is so blown out of proportion it's crazy. I certainly don't remember a thing and I think I'm a well-adjusted citizen.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2010, 11:03:07 am »

Circumcision involves cutting off a body part for Christ's sake.  That's not something that we generally take lightly.  It's definitely a bigger deal than piercing your ears, which you claim is equivalent.  They pierce your ears at a kiosk in the mall.  I don't think they'll lop off the end of your penis there.
I seriously don't believe you know what circumcision entails.  THEY ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LOP OFF THE END OF YOUR PENIS!!!!!  They remove some foreskin from around the head of your penis.  It's NOT the end of the penis.  I let you say it earlier because I assumed you were just making a point, but now I'm convinced you have no clue what the procedure entails.  They aren't removing a body part.  Do some research.  It's like saying falling down and scraping the skin off your arm is the same as it being removed. It's not.  It's not anywhere CLOSE to being the same.

If we follow your train of thought then having your toenails trimmed is cutting off a body part.  Having your eyebrows plucked is removing a body part.  Shaving your legs is cutting off a body part.  It's not quite the same thing as having your arm removed.

And the only reason they DON'T do it in a kiosk is because it's normally done when you are born while you are still in the hospital.  It literally could be done in a kiosk right next to where you have your earrings put in it's that simple of a procedure.  The biggest risk in having it done is infection JUST LIKE EARRINGS.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:27:47 am by Pappy13 » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2010, 11:07:11 am »

cutting off a body part

It is the removal of some skin.  I think you are confusing circumcision and castration.  

BTW under your definition of permanent body modification, braces would illegal for those under the age of 18.  It is permanent body modification for purely cosmetic reasons.  
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2010, 11:09:42 am »

I think circumcision is destined to fall out of practice... eventually.

Historically, many ancient cultures have practiced it (including the ancient Egyptians, but not the ancient Greeks and Romans), but if you look at the current prevalence of circumcision, it's only widespread in North America, the Middle East and North/Central Africa. It's rare in Central/South America, Europe, Russia, China and India.

In North America, the practice is declining at an extremely rapidly pace (seen in a historical context).
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2010, 11:11:34 am »

It's like saying falling down and scraping the skin off your arm is the same as it being removed. It's not.  It's not anywhere CLOSE to being the same.

Way to try and make you point through exaggeration... Ironic considering the criticism you're leveling...
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Pappy13
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2010, 11:17:10 am »

Way to try and make you point through exaggeration... Ironic considering the criticism you're leveling...
I didn't exaggerate in the slightest.  It's removing some skin.  That's what the procedure entails.  It's not removing a limb.  It's not removing an organ.  It's not removing your penis.  It's removing some skin and a very small amount of skin at that.  You're penis isn't that large when you're born.

Just because it's removing some skin from an area that men typically have a hard time coming to grips with doesn't make it any different from skin on the rest of your body.  I've had my share of skin removal on my leg from sliding into 2nd base in a softball game.  I don't think anyone is considering banning sliding into 2nd base.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:22:26 am by Pappy13 » Logged

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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2010, 11:19:33 am »

I think circumcision is destined to fall out of practice... eventually.

Historically, many ancient cultures have practiced it (including the ancient Egyptians, but not the ancient Greeks and Romans), but if you look at the current prevalence of circumcision, it's only widespread in North America, the Middle East and North/Central Africa. It's rare in Central/South America, Europe, Russia, China and India.

In North America, the practice is declining at an extremely rapidly pace (seen in a historical context).

I think the rates in North America are higher now than in my grandfather's generation.  Cause according to him in the Army you could figure out who was Jewish and who was not in the shower as pretty much only the Jews had it done.    
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fyo
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« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2010, 11:35:55 am »

I didn't exaggerate in the slightest.  It's removing some skin. 

Sure you did and now you're just coming off stupid. You made a valid point, but had to wreck it.

Getting some foreskin lopped off isn't comparable to getting a scrape. The skin grows back in one case, not in the other. That's a HUGE difference considering that's the fundamental issue here.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2010, 11:51:05 am »

Sure you did and now you're just coming off stupid. You made a valid point, but had to wreck it.

The skin grows back in one case, not in the other. That's a HUGE difference considering that's the fundamental issue here.


Sometimes....I have had some scrapes where the skin grew back....but a few which left a permanent scar. 
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