Cutting Taxes

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

.  But we don't need to be building jets to occupy every corner of the Earth.  Our military model is unsustainable.

"It will be a wonderful day when schools get all the money they need and the Airforce needs to hold a bakesale to buy a bomber." - poster on my high school economic teachers office wall.   

[badger6]

Import taxes violate our trade agreements.

I say fuck the trade agreements. Agreements and terms change all the time in life. When you are on the brink of collapse you have to do what is necessary to adapt and survive.

Doesn't solve all our problems...just a step in the right direction. 

A step in the right direction is where we need to go, one at a time. Not 1 step forward 3 steps back. In the end it is better for a person to be employed and have a higher cost of goods because they are made in the US, than it is for a person to be unemployed with super low cost imported goods.

[badger6]

I am with you on many things, Badger, but Obamacare hasn't even taken place yet.  It's designed to save money in the long term.  If you want to talk about deficit spending, you have to talk about the military.  That's the big, expendable income that can be cut the easiest.  There's a ton of room to cut, and it's something we wouldn't even miss.

While Obamacare will cost taxpayers, it's money they'd be spending privately anyway, so it's probably close to a wash, overall.  But we don't need to be building jets to occupy every corner of the Earth.  Our military model is unsustainable.

Well, I'll do ya one better on that because I fully agree with you. We should get out of Afghanistan ASAP. Pull all of our troops out of US bases in foreign countries. And stop trying to police the world. Our piece of land and country is the United States, not the whole globe.

As far as Obamacare, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Obamacare is healthcare reform. The United States has the best healthcare in the world. What we needed was insurance reform. Obamacare does include some insurance reform. But in the United States we have the right not to purchase what we don't want to purchase. Besides taxes, we have the right to spend our money on legal goods or not. Obamacare forces people to buy something that they may or may not want, or they are taxed even more by the IRS at tax time. I know our military model is unsustainable, and it does need to change. But, Obamacare is unsustainable also. Insurance rates are already going up more than in the past. I don't know the time line but it seem that the smaller insurance companies will be the first to fall, then the larger ones will fall. After that we will all be on Gubment insurance, cause they know best. I say take my taxes and leave me the hell alone.......

[Pappy13]

But in the United States we have the right not to purchase what we don't want to purchase.

We do?  Please tell that to the department of motor vehicles because I need to renew my plates and they won't without proof of insurance.

[badger6]

We do?  Please tell that to the department of motor vehicles because I need to renew my plates and they won't without proof of insurance.

You need insurance to protect the other person. In case you hit someone they are protected by liability insurance or if the car is financed and has a lien holder, they are protected by comp and collision. Health insurance is to protect yourself, no one else is involved. Kinda like if you punch yourself in the face it is your choice, but if you punch someone else in the face you will go to jail. Personal decisions that affect only me should be left up to me, stupid or not.

By the way, driving is a privledge not a right. The state allows you to drive in exchange for your agreement to their rules and regulations, ie - implied consent laws.

[Dave Gray]

You need insurance to protect the other person. In case you hit someone they are protected by liability insurance or if the car is financed and has a lien holder, they are protected by comp and collision. Health insurance is to protect yourself, no one else is involved.

I would like to agree with you, and I see where you are coming from, but I think that particular model is idealistic and ultimately not realistic.

We kinda have that now.  If someone walks into a hospital without insurance, they will still be treated.  When the cannot pay, the hospitals have to raise their rates, and your insurance goes up anyway.  We already have socialized medicine in a sense.  Since I don't foresee us ever having a country where you're willing to watch your neighbor die from illness if they are broke, then I think that an insurance mandate is the only way to go.

It is very similar to the insurance model for cars we have now.

[badger6]

I would like to agree with you, and I see where you are coming from, but I think that particular model is idealistic and ultimately not realistic.

We kinda have that now.  If someone walks into a hospital without insurance, they will still be treated.  When the cannot pay, the hospitals have to raise their rates, and your insurance goes up anyway.  We already have socialized medicine in a sense.  Since I don't foresee us ever having a country where you're willing to watch your neighbor die from illness if they are broke, then I think that an insurance mandate is the only way to go.

It is very similar to the insurance model for cars we have now.

Unfortunately Dave, if someone can't afford insurance, how can they afford to pay the tax/fine levied by the IRS. So if I can't afford insurance. They tax or fine me because I can't meet the insurance mandate. I still have no money and can't pay the fine. But I still do get health care after all is said and done. So since the tax or fine is obviously going to be less than actually getting insurance, and you can't pay the fine anyway, and your still gonna get seen by the doctor and circumvent the system. What the hell is the point of all of this ? It's a zero sum game........

Should the government mandate anything for citizens to have to buy Not a good idea to let an entity that can't even spend it's own money properly to start telling others how to spend their money.

[JVides]

P.S. Why include deductions and exemptions at all?  Doesn't that make it less fair?  Why should I pay more real dollars in taxes, as a single non-parent adult, compared to another adult with the same job and salary as me, but with a wife and 3 kids?

First of all, I get an extra exemption for having a kid, but not much else.  Most other tax breaks phase out at higher incomes.  You get a personal exemption and a standard deduction, which is supposed to in some way cover the essentials of living, but not anything else.  Why wouldn't my "essentials" exemption increase with each person for whom I must provide? 

Secondly, married filing joint tax rates begin to adjust downward towards single filer rates at the 25% tax bracket (in other words, I, who support other people, eventually end up paying just as much tax on the same amount of taxable income as you, who apparently do not support others.

Third, I'm sure you don't mind paying less for health insurance than I do, right?  Seeing as how I pay for 3 people and you only pay for yourself.  Believe me that my take home pay is considerably less, before and after tax, than the single guy making the same as I do (or even several thousand per year less than I make)

[JVides]

Well, I'll do ya one better on that because I fully agree with you. We should get out of Afghanistan ASAP. Pull all of our troops out of US bases in foreign countries. And stop trying to police the world. Our piece of land and country is the United States, not the whole globe.

Gotta say, Badger, isolationism hasn't exactly worked out for us in the past.  I can guarantee that the instability caused by troop withdrawals would cost so much more than the cost of keeping us in bases all around the world.

[badger6]

Gotta say, Badger, isolationism hasn't exactly worked out for us in the past.  I can guarantee that the instability caused by troop withdrawals would cost so much more than the cost of keeping us in bases all around the world.

Nah, I think you missed my point. I think that there are too many countries that rely on us and our resources, those days need to end. Now if 4-5 countries for see a common problem they all need to band together and "FIX" the problem. We don't need to be the cowboys of the world stealing oil and imposing our will on the rest of the planet. Why do we have to be an empire ? Just like all the past ones, this one isn't to big to fail either !

[Spider-Dan]

As far as Obamacare, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Obamacare is healthcare reform. The United States has the best healthcare in the world.

Based on what metric?  We do not lead in any categories such as:

- lowest % of uninsured population
- lowest fatality rate from treatable diseases
- highest success rate of curing treatable diseases

"The United States has the best healthcare in the world" is a talking point based on national pride, not measurable statistics.

But in the United States we have the right not to purchase what we don't want to purchase. Besides taxes, we have the right to spend our money on legal goods or not.

When do I have the option to opt out of paying for schools, fire departments, police, military, or roads?

There are a vast number of programs that you are forced to pay for in the United States, whether you want to use them or not.  That's how taxes work.  Your argument only exists because Congress chose to continue to allow the private insurance market to exist; if we had went to a single-payer system, you wouldn't "pay anything extra," since you'd automatically be covered.  But the revenue still comes from somewhere.

But, Obamacare is unsustainable also. Insurance rates are already going up more than in the past.

A major component of that is that people choose not to purchase health insurance, but we (the taxpayers) end up paying for their healthcare anyway (at the emergency room) when they have a stroke or heart attack.

Right now, saying "I don't want to pay for healthcare" is a red herring, in the same way that saying "I don't want to pay for a military" is; whether you pay or not, you benefit from the existing system.

Unfortunately Dave, if someone can't afford insurance, how can they afford to pay the tax/fine levied by the IRS.

Do these people actually exist?  At the income level where you literally can't afford insurance, the "fine" would simply be less money that you receive in your income tax refund.

[Spider-Dan]

First of all, I get an extra exemption for having a kid, but not much else.  Most other tax breaks phase out at higher incomes.  You get a personal exemption and a standard deduction, which is supposed to in some way cover the essentials of living, but not anything else.  Why wouldn't my "essentials" exemption increase with each person for whom I must provide? 

By arguing for an exemption for "essentials," you concede that not all income is equal.  Some of your income (the first $XXXXX or so) is used to purchase the essential foundations of daily life, while income over that amount is disposable, used for fun or to further enhance your wealth.

This is the basis of our progressive tax system, and why taxing people at "the same percentage regardless of income" is fundamentally unfair.