Would Lieberman have been better than Palin for McCain's long term success?

[BigDaddyFin]

Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman yes, none of the other names above impress me very much. 

the other names on that list didn't impress me very much. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman yes, none of the other names above impress me very much. 

the other names on that list didn't impress me very much. 

Basically, you and Spider said the same thing.  You hate the moderates in your own party but wish their was more moderates in the opposition. 

[Dave Gray]

I will probably cause a shit-storm by saying this, but what liberal extremists are there in Washington right now (or ever)?

When I think of liberal extremists, I think of PETA...people who want to make eating meat illegal...weird crap like that.  Where as I think that there are many conservative extremists that are active in politics NOW.  What constitutes a radical liberal agenda, anyway?  I know that people hate Pelosi (the face of hatred on the GOP side) and they can disagree with her plenty, but it's not like she's a radical.  They moved along with health care and a few other changes, but they're all things that the Democratic party has been running on for the last 100 years.  It's nothing that's really all that "out-there", in terms of extreme politics.

I think that we're being dishonest if we say that extremism is equal in both sides.  It's just not.  There are some idiots on the Dem side FOR SURE that use stupid tactics, poor analogies in their rhetoric, etc, but there's nothing in their platforms that I can think of that is all that crazy, even in the most liberal people.  In fact, I think that Barney Frank (possibly the most liberal guy out there) is very sensible and not a nut job.  My point is that there are no Michelle Bachmans on the left.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

^^^ I guess that depends on what you consider radical. 

To some one feels that the minimum wage, social security, or requiring daycare centers to have fire exits is communism...pretty much the entire democratic party is radicals. 

In fact the notion that bathrooms ought not be segregated at one time was an extremely radical idea.  As was the idea of social security.  The idea that men and women be treated equally was a radical idea.

Today many consider the idea that homosexuals be given equal rights as heterosexual regarding marriage or service in the military as  radical ideas.  And just like folks use to think that food stamps was a radical idea, some think that universal access to health care is too radical.  Or permitting women who are feeding their children to do so in public.   

For me, you and spider....the dems make sense and the republicans are the radicals.  For Big Daddy Fin the repubs makes sense and the dems are the radicals. 

[Dave Gray]

I don't think the Republicans are radicals.  By and large, I think the vast, vast majority of elected officials in the party are sound thinkers, though I don't agree with many things in the platform.  They get caught up in the rhetoric and say stupid crap to save votes now and then, but for the most part, I don't think they're lunatics.  However, I think that the GOP (at its end) leans way, way more right than the Dems do lean left.

[BigDaddyFin]

Basically, you and Spider said the same thing.  You hate the moderates in your own party but wish their was more moderates in the opposition. 

I'd say that's a probably accurate assessment. 

[CF DolFan]

I don't think the Republicans are radicals.  By and large, I think the vast, vast majority of elected officials in the party are sound thinkers, though I don't agree with many things in the platform.  They get caught up in the rhetoric and say stupid crap to save votes now and then, but for the most part, I don't think they're lunatics.  However, I think that the GOP (at its end) leans way, way more right than the Dems do lean left.

That's your opinion only because of where you sit. To a conservative, accepting abortion is about as far left as you can go while to you it seems normal. To you, being against abortion is as far right as you can go while it would not seem extreme to a conservative.

There are many people who say we are against abortion so lets see how we can lower the rate on the conservative side. There are many people on the liberal side who are for a women's right to choose but realize that abortion should not be used as an excuse for birth control. Those are the people that can work together and would be considered moderates.

I know I've said this before but something came up recently that brought it to light again. My pastor is a white Republican who is very much against abortion and gays rights to marry. He is also one of President Obama's advisors and spiritual leaders. He prays with him weekly and works with him on his personal devotionals. He would have never been in a position as this if he had not realized how to work together with people who completely disagree with his views but he teaches that you find common ground, whatever that is, and work from there. I wish more people were like him as that would most benefit us as a country. 


That's him to the right of Obama ... or to Obama's left.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

There are many people who say we are against abortion so lets see how we can lower the rate on the conservative side. There are many people on the liberal side who are for a women's right to choose but realize that abortion should not be used as an excuse for birth control. Those are the people that can work together and would be considered moderates.

Nice analogy, but there are almost no left wing nut jobs and over half the republican party is a nut job if you use that as your example......

Almost no one feels that abortion should be used as birth control.

A moderate position of reducing abortions without making them illegal would included:

* safe sex education in schools (reality opposed by many on the right)
* condemn availability in schools (mixed availability;  opposed by the right; supported by the left)
* Foodstamps, WIC, healthcare, child care etc for high school women who are mothers so they can keep their baby and finish school instead of aborting. (same)
* greater awareness and ease in accessing adoption programs for young women (only one supported by left and right)

[Dave Gray]

You want to use abortion as an example, and although it's controversial, it certainly isn't radical.  It's been legal for over 30 years and more than half of the country agrees with it.  It's not like being pro-choice is a fringe position.

That's all I mean.

I totally understand why people would be against abortion.  I also understand why people support it.  I think it's probably the "grayest" issue that society faces today.

[Spider-Dan]

That's your opinion only because of where you sit. To a conservative, accepting abortion is about as far left as you can go while to you it seems normal.

Really?  Accepting a constitutionally-protected right is "as far left as you can go"?

As far left as the eco-nuts who chain themselves to trees and boat in circles around oil megatankers?
As far left as the honest-to-goodness Communists that want to abolish capitalism and private wealth?
As far left as the the Code Pinkers who protested with coffin displays outside of Walter Reed Medical Center?

This is an excellent example of what we're talking about.  To conservatives, constitutionally affirmed rights are "positions of the far-left fringe."  The equivalent would be if I said that owning any gun puts you at the far edge of right-wing extremism.

We have a fundamental problem in that the right-wing seems to categorize any item they disagree with (even the ones that the judiciary specifically affirms as constitutional) as "far-left," but considers virtually none of their own positions to be extreme at all.