Good read about the Quarterback position

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

In what respect is Cassel better than Jay Fiedler?

Cassel inherited a 16-0 team and couldn't make the playoffs.
He went 4-11 as KC's starter last year.
He has yet to win a playoff game.

As for 11-5 vs. 16-0.  He ain't Tom Brady.  I think we can agree on that. 

Year before Matt arrived in KC the team went 2-14, they are going to the playoffs this year.  Pretty good improvement. 

Fielder has thrown almost as many ints (66) as TD (69).  Cassel has thrown almost twice as many tds(66) as ints (34).  As the goal is to score points and not give the ball to the opponent, I would consider that as significant.   

[David Fulcher]

Year before Matt arrived in KC the team went 2-14, they are going to the playoffs this year.  Pretty good improvement. 

Sorry, Hoodie, but by this logic, isn't Chad Pennington better than Cassel, considering that he inherited a 1-15 Miami team from the season before and came in during the middle of the preseason only to lead them to an 11-5 season (with no 4-11 season in between)?  As soon as you stated that Cassel was better than any Miami QB post-Danny, I was screaming to myself, "Over Pennington?!??".  Granted, after two more shoulder surgeries, I likely wouldn't take Penny over Cassel, but I would most definitely take 2008 Pennington (and probably even earlier versions of Pennington when he was having some up-and-down seasons) over Cassel.

As for Spider's suggestion of Fiedler over Cassel...while I'm not sure any number/statistic other than wins can support it, I also think there's an argument to be made for Fielder over Cassel.  I at least think it's arguable, is what I'm sayin'.  The man mostly won, which is a heck of a lot more than what I can say for pretty much any other QB we've thrown out there since Dan besides Pennington in '08 and Frerotte at times during the '05 season. 

I agree otherwise--the rest of the guys have mostly just sucked, and I've been so disappointed in Henne's play this season, particularly being a Michigan fan as well (but having watched him in the past, even though I never thought he'd be great, I don't recall him ever looking this bad, so I do believe coaching [or lack of it] has definitely played a role in his *regression*).

Back to Fielder real quick--though it's been said numerous times on here before, I still always think about the 2002 season, and how well we were playing prior to Jay's injury in that Sunday Night game at Denver, and what happened to that team for the better part of 4 or 5 games while Ray Lucas had to take the reins.  Unlike some people around here, I don't absolutely despise Lucas because of those games (though I certainly wasn't happy with him at the time), but it further reinforced to me that Fielder wasn't absolute garbage like a lot of fans made him out to be at the time...especially with some of the quarterback *play* we've seen since as well.

*Sorry for the semi-hijack, but I think all of this is still related since it has to do with quarterback play, even if it was in the past*

[badger6]

The smart thing to help Henne along would be to fire the OC, so Henne will be forced to learn a new offense.    Or maybe not.

Well it certainly can't hurt to forget the old one.

I'm not quite convinced that he really knows the current offense, so there is not much to forget 

[Sunstroke]

Q: In what respect is Matt Cassel better than Jay Fiedler?

A: In any respect that involves having your eyes open while watching both play the QB position.

[David Fulcher]

Q: In what respect is Matt Cassel better than Jay Fiedler?

A: In any respect that involves having your eyes open while watching both play the QB position.

Ha ha ha...definitely got a laugh outta this post, 'Stroke, as usual from you. 

Anyways, admittedly perhaps I don't have the best grasp/feel for Cassel's *talents* because, in comparison to someone like Jay who I watched nearly every game of for numerous seasons, I've really only mostly watched one season (2008 NEP) of Cassel's, and though he wasn't terrible that season, I honestly wasn't very impressed with his play.  The one thing I did notice in comparison to Brady is that at least he brought a little mobility to the position--not that it's as necessary there since their linemen never get called for holding, it seems (sorry Hoodie! Had to take that shot).

When it comes to teams like the Chiefs, who I'm typically indifferent towards most seasons but have appreciated what they're doing this season because they are a) so young, and b) have a TON of talent out of the SEC (Alabama native, Auburn #2 college team), I usually don't get to--or even choose to--watch a lot of their games so I haven't seen many of his starts as a Chief (probably a handful to this point).  Last season's *highlights* that I saw looked pretty rough for him, though, and even 3 or 4 games into this season, I can still remember some of the football guys on nfl.com and a few other sports sites speculating if Cassel might not be KC's limiting factor--which I didn't take to be a good outlook for his play.  There's been awhile ago now, though, so perhaps he's got it figured out now. 

I'd still say Pennington is/was better than Cassel, though, regardless.....

[tepop84]

I think Jay fiedler gets a pretty bad rap.  Look at how his backups did when he went out.  He was a good 3-4 stopgap for the dolphins. He was 16th/ 9th/ 13th in Any/A for 2000-2002.  With as much money as they put in the defense, to have a qb who performed that well while not really hurting your cap at all is pretty good. His last year in Miami was really bad, but I don't think you can take away from his first 3.

[Spider-Dan]

As for 11-5 vs. 16-0.  He ain't Tom Brady.  I think we can agree on that.

Not the point.  Cassel took one of the best teams in the history of the league and, if not quite "ran them into the ground," took a MAJOR step back.

In fact, it's practically impossible to argue that Cassel was even the best QB in the AFC East that year.  Pennington finished 2nd in MVP voting and took at 1-15 team to 11-5.  That's a 15-win swing between the two QBs (Penny +10, Cassel -5).

Year before Matt arrived in KC the team went 2-14, they are going to the playoffs this year.

...except that he was there last year too, and they went from 2-14 to 4-12.  So to summarize:

- Cassel inherits highest scoring team in NFL history, then proceeds to lead the league in sacks and lose the division to a team that finished 1-15 the year before
- Cassel inherits garbage 2-14 team and gives them a whopping 2 win improvement over Tyler Thigpen

The only thing I gather from that is that Cassel is definitely better than the guy who started the season as our 3rd QB.

Fielder has thrown almost as many ints (66) as TD (69).  Cassel has thrown almost twice as many tds(66) as ints (34).  As the goal is to score points and not give the ball to the opponent, I would consider that as significant.

Fiedler never led the league in sacks taken (he was never even in the top 10), and he certainly didn't do it with (again) the highest scoring offense ever.

Although I'm happy to continue arguing Fiedler over Cassel, you've already lost the war on this one: Pennington was clearly better than Cassel, so your premise is refuted.

[Pappy13]

I think Jay fiedler gets a pretty bad rap. He was 16th/ 9th/ 13th in Any/A for 2000-2002.

In those years Fiedler's ANY/A was 5.1, 5.6 and 5.9 respectively.  Henne's ANY/A the last 2 years has been 4.8 and 5.1.  Not really a striking difference there.  And as you mentioned Fiedler's last year with the Dolphins was his worst where he posted a 4.9, worse than this year for Henne.  In fact 2001 and 2002 were Fiedler's best years as a pro for ANY/A.  Fiedler was also in his 5th year as a player in 2000 when he first started for the Dolphins, whereas Henne was in his 2nd.

Furthermore if you analyze all of the QB's who have taken the majority of the snaps for the Dolphins for each year since Marino has retired, it is Henne that comes in 4th this year behind Pennington's 2008 and Fiedler's 2001 & 2002 seasons.  While Henne may not be the future of the franchise, he's been better than the majority of QB's the Dolphins have rolled out there since Marino retired.  I would at least like to see what he can do with a different coordinator before writing him off.

[badger6]

I think Jay fiedler gets a pretty bad rap.  Look at how his backups did when he went out.  He was a good 3-4 stopgap for the dolphins. He was 16th/ 9th/ 13th in Any/A for 2000-2002.  With as much money as they put in the defense, to have a qb who performed that well while not really hurting your cap at all is pretty good. His last year in Miami was really bad, but I don't think you can take away from his first 3.

Well to tell the truth, I would rather have Fiedler than Henne. And that says a lot about Henne and the Dolphins as an organization !!!

[tepop84]

In those years Fiedler's ANY/A was 5.1, 5.6 and 5.9 respectively.  Henne's ANY/A attempt the last 2 years has been 4.8 and 5.1.  Not really a striking difference there.  And as you mentioned Fiedler's last year with the Dolphins was his worst where he posted a 4.9, worse than this year for Henne.

Fiedler was also in his 5th year as a player in 2000 when he first started for the Dolphins, whereas Henne was in his 2nd.

Furthermore if you analyze all of the QB's who have taken the majority of the snaps for the Dolphins for each year since Marino has retired, it is Henne that comes in 4th this year behind Pennington's 2008 and Fiedler's 2001 & 2002 seasons.

While Henne may not be the future of the franchise, he's been better than the majority of QB's the Dolphins have rolled out there since Marino retired.  I would at least like to see what he can do with a different coordinator before writing him off.

well 5.1 this year is 27th ranked qb in the nfl, 5.1 in 2000 when fiedler did it it was 16th. The NFL is much more qb friendly now so it is easier to put up good numbers.   Henne's receivers are a ton better than what Fiedler had to work with.

[Pappy13]

well 5.1 this year is 27th ranked qb in the nfl, 5.1 in 2000 when fiedler did it it was 16th. The NFL is much more qb friendly now so it is easier to put up good numbers.   Henne's receivers are a ton better than what Fiedler had to work with.

I don't agree.  If you look at the top numbers year over year, the numbers for the top QB's fluxuate up and down with the players, there's not a consistent pattern of the numbers going up.  All it really suggests is that there were not as many QB's putting up good numbers in 2000 as there are now. 

In fact in 1999 that 5.1 would have been ranked 25th in the league similar to this year, in 2001 it would have been ranked 28th and in 2002 31st.  Fiedler happened to be playing in a couple years where the QB's in general were not that great.  Today there are a number of great QB's and several more very promising players.  In 2000 the top 4 QB's in ANY/A were Kurt Warner, Brian Griese, Trent Green and Jeff Garcia.  Whoa, that's some stiff competition for Fiedler and I do mean stiff.

[tepop84]

Not sure if serious.gif.  Trent Green had 4 out of 5 years in a row with an ANY/A over 7.0.  The only year he didn't was the first year with a new team. And Kurt Warner will probably be in the Hof.   

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm

sort by any/a. not surprising that the top 3 years are 2008,2009, 2010.

[Pappy13]

Not sure if serious.gif.  Trent Green had 4 out of 5 years in a row with an ANY/A over 7.0.  The only year he didn't was the first year with a new team. And Kurt Warner will probably be in the Hof.   

And today we have Tom Brady, Phil Rivers and Aaron Rogers since Peyton Manning and Drew Brees have had sub-par years for them.  2000 was a down year for QB's.

[tepop84]

And today we have Tom Brady, Phil Rivers and Aaron Rogers since Peyton Manning and Drew Brees have had sub-par years for them.  2000 was a down year for QB's.

Or the rules have changed and it is easier for qbs now. 2000 is right with 2001 and 1999 for league any/a.

[Pappy13]

Not sure if serious.gif.  Trent Green had 4 out of 5 years in a row with an ANY/A over 7.0.  The only year he didn't was the first year with a new team. And Kurt Warner will probably be in the Hof.   

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm

sort by any/a. not surprising that the top 3 years are 2008,2009, 2010.

No it's not surprising because Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Phil Rivers, Ben Roethlisber and Aaron Rogers were in their prime during that period.  In 2000 it was Kurt Warner and Trent Green.