Why do people believe in astrology?

[StL FinFan]

So in your scenario. If a person got a divorce for irreconcilable differences. In the eyes of God they are still married to their ex spouse. Subsequently, they get remarried. Then in fact they are committing adultery every time they sleep with their new spouse. So since they commit the same sin over and over and are not truly sorry. They are not forgiven. If that's the case then a good percentage of Christians ain't gonna be forgiven. And then be BBQ for Satan, ha ha..........

You can get a marriage annulled through the church, for a price.  However, I know people who had perfectly good reasons that were denied, such as a man who's wife just took off and left him.  Five years later he tried to get an annulment because he had not heard from her and did not know where she was.  The church is run by humans and therefore fallible.  I'll probably go to Hell for saying that, if I believed in Hell.  <-  there's that picking and choosing you spoke of

[Pappy13]

The rules god laid down are in the bible.

I don't think you really know what is in the Bible or who wrote them.  God didn't write the Bible.  Man did.

Eyes of the church or the eyes of God ? Are those the same 2 things ?

Pretty much.  When you get married you determine whether you want the marriage presided over by a priest or not.  If not then the Catholic Church doesn't reconize the marriage.  If the Church doesn't recognize the marriage then it really doesn't have much to do with your faith.  You would be living in sin as far as the Church is concerned.

Again, I'm talking about Christianity as a whole, not just one denomination.

It's impossible to lump Christianity into 1 large group.  Every denomination has a different set of beliefs.

It doesn't really matter anyhow. If they are married in Las Vegas or Hawaii and God or the church doesn't recognize the marriage. They are committing fornication on a daily basis and not forgiven.

Only if they die before asking for forgiveness and being absolved. (Catholicism)

So your saying that a person can do whatever they want in life as long as they ask for forgiveness at the end.

Yes as long as you are truly repenting your sins, but you can't do that if you are knowingly committing the sins in the first place.  God knows what's in your heart.

But a good percentage of people don't get that chance, not everyone knows when they will die.

Which is why it's recommended that you confess your sins on a regular basis.  In the end only the sins which you haven't confessed and been absolved of will matter (Catholicism).

If a person knows the rules that the bible lays down and they break them over and over on a daily basis, all the while knowing that what they are doing is wrong, but waiting for the last day to ask for forgiveness.  Doesn't that seem like they were trying to get in as much selfish "against the rules" pleasure they could, before then saying as an afterthought "Oh sorry". Seems like an all knowing god would catch on to that scam from the get go.

Now you got it.  God knows whats in your heart.  If you aren't sorry for your sins you will not be absolved from them.  But if you truly are sorry, even on that last day, it's not too late to make peace with God.

[badger6]

You can get a marriage annulled through the church, for a price.  However, I know people who had perfectly good reasons that were denied, such as a man who's wife just took off and left him.  Five years later he tried to get an annulment because he had not heard from her and did not know where she was.  The church is run by humans and therefore fallible.  I'll probably go to Hell for saying that, if I believed in Hell.  <-  there's that picking and choosing you spoke of

No I was asking you a question actually. You said that if someone kept on doing something over and over that they weren't truly sorry and therefore wouldn't be forgiven. In my scenario above, would that person be forgiven ? I'm just referring to the standard no fault divorce that is so popular today in the majority of divorces. Obviously, God can't approve of that sort of thing. The Bible gives 2 clear grounds for divorce - sexual immorality "Matthew 5:32; 19:9" and abandonment by an unbeliever "1 Corinthians 7:15". Even in these 2 instances, divorce is not required and not even encouraged. Sexual immorality and abandonment are grounds, i.e. an allowance to get a divorce . Divorce should only be viewed as a last resort according to the bible.   

[badger6]

I don't think you really know what is in the bible or who wrote them.  God didn't write the Bible.  Man did. It's okay, I wouldn't really expect not of the faith to understand it, just don't try to convince that what I believe is wrong based on an inaccurate account of it.

Actually, I went to a christian school for 8 years. Had Bible class every day of those 8 years. And also was dragged to just about every denomination church for 5-6 years. Not to mention, the research that I have done in order to come up with the belief system that makes sense to me. So while I am no expert on the topic, I think that I know enough.

So what exactly are you saying about the bible ? Either there are rules/laws/sins/commandments in the bible for Christians to follow or there are not. Which one is it ? Please correct my inaccurate account of it, by all means. Your opinion can't be wrong on this topic, no one's can.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I have no reason to, I have nothing to convert you to. I am simply having a discussion on an internet forum. Trying to understand things that I don't understand and understand other peoples point of view, even though I probably won't agree with it. Nothing wrong with that is there ?

[Pappy13]

I edited my above response.  See if that clears it up some.  I think the biggest problem we are having seeing eye to eye on this is that you are trying to lump all Christians into certain beliefs and those beliefs are based on the Bible.  The only thing that Christians have in common is a belief in Christ.  The Bible is merely a document that was written by the apostles that attempts to explain some of Christ's teachings.  It was not written by Christ and therefore not written by God.  It was written by man and is not intended to be the sole source for all of Christ's teachings. (Catholicism)  It's not a "rule book" of life written by God, it's an explanation of Christ's life, death and teachings as interpreted by the apostles.

The only "rule book" we have straight from God is the ten commandments.

[StL FinFan]

^ nicely put

[Pappy13]

The church is run by humans and therefore fallible.

You are absolutely correct.  Even the Pope isn't beyond making mistakes.  The Church does go back over it's teachings from time to time and changes things.  Even they realize it's not beyond improving.

[badger6]

I edited my above response.  See if that clears it up some.  I think the biggest problem we are having seeing eye to eye on this is that you are trying to lump all Christians into certain beliefs and those beliefs are based on the Bible.  The only thing that Christians have in common is a belief in Christ.  The Bible is merely a document that was written by the apostles that attempts to explain some of Christ's teachings.  It was not written by Christ and therefore not written by God.  It was written by man and is not intended to be the sole source for all of Christ's teachings. (Catholicism)  It's not a "rule book" of life written by God, it's an explanation of Christ's life, death and teachings as interpreted by the apostles.

The only "rule book" we have straight from God is the ten commandments.

I do understand you point. But even though the bible was written by man. Wasn't Jesus quoted to a good extent ? Although, you say that the only "rule book" we have is the ten commandments, don't quotes straight from Jesus count ? As in my example above. Would you agree that the bible implies that "god hates divorce" and that there are only 2-3 valid reasons for divorce according to the bibles teachings ? So if someone has any other excuse for getting a divorce, god doesn't recognize it. In turn if said person remarries or has sex with anyone else, they in fact are committing adultery, which is one of the ten commandments.

Yes as long as you are truly repenting your sins, but you can't do that if you are knowingly committing the sins in the first place.  God knows what's in your heart.

That was my point in my example, but no one ever just came out and said it. A christian should know that divorce isn't allowed just because they are not happy in their marriage, and that remarrying is considered adultery. Hence, what you said, you can't truly repent if you are knowingly committing the sins in the first place.  God knows what's in your heart.

[CF DolFan]

I don't know if I want to get into this just for arguments sake but here goes.

Divorce is a sin. So is judging, coveting, living in a house that has mold, not washing your hands before you eat and so on. Sin is disobeying God which ultimately is seprartion form God.  If you are a Christian, meaning if you have accepted Christ as your savior, then all of your sins have been forgiven. Both the sins of your past as well as the sins of your future. Jesus paid it all which means all to Him I owe. There is nothing anyone of us can do to erase that or even help Him. So if you are a Christian and divorce for whatever reason, even knowing God hates divorce, then you are forgiven just as you are for lusting after your best friend's wife.

The thing is, and this is what gets under people's skin, most people who call themselves Christians are probably not but it isn't for me to say. The apostle Paul said we will know them by their fruit.  Apostle James said we will know them not by what they say but by what they do ... meaning their actions will reflect what they believe more than what they say (this is important for so many many things). Christians obey God or try their best because God's rules are intended to give us the best life possible. They aren't a list of do's and dont's to control us but a list of things that will help us maximize our life in this fallen world. No sin will keep us out of Heaven if we are truley saved or else that would mean Jesus' scarifice wasn't good enough. (This is the single biggest division between Catholic and Protestant)

See it is very easy to say you are a Christian. It takes about 2 seconds. Who wouldn't want a free ride into eternity just by saying a few words? Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than taking your car to a repair shop makes you a mechanic so that doesn't save you either. Being good doesn't save you since Jesus said thinking about a sin makes you a sinner. He was pointing out that our idea of sin and God's is much, much, different and that we in no way, could ever achieve it.

So calling yourself Christain, going to church but living as if there is no god, and doing good deeds won't save then you what will?  To actually be a Christian means you have accepted God's free gift. You cannot actually accept something until you use it. Just like money, it does you no good unless you use it. If I give it to you and it sits on my desk then not only does it go to waste, I'll probably get upset that you didn't use it. This means if Jesus is not affecting how you act, what you say, what you view, what you do with your blessings and so on, then you should question who you are following, yourself or Jesus?  In Matthew 7:21 Jesus specifically said “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  A quick way to look at what you actually worship will be to look at your bank register. Luke 12:24 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also

The bottom line is people are fallible and broken. If they really feel they cannot make their marriage work and get a divorce they certainly are not doing what God would want. There is no questin about that. Since Jesus said a sin is not actually doing it but just thinking about it then I can bet Christians are guilty of pretty much every sin out there. This means there will probably be many sins we don't confess because we don't even realize we do them. It is for this very reason that I am glad that Jesus paid the way because there is no way in the world I will ever be good enough no matter how much I try. The important part is that we do try.

The ultimate question really comes down to one thing in the Bible.  Do people accept God and follow Him (requires action) or do they turn their back on Him and do their own thing? This is being your own god and that is the one sin that eternally separates people from Him. 


I also would like to point out the one difference between Christianity and any other religion. In any other religion people are responsible for being good enough to move on to Heaven or to be reincarnated into something better. Christianity is the only religion that God himself took on that burden and not only became one of us, but sacrifced to give us a bridge to spend eternity with Him as was intended.  Sometimes people confuse Christianity as a place where we have to be perfect and it is absolutley not. To assume we will ever be good enough is actually an insult to what Jesus did for us and a clear understanding that they do not know Jesus. 

[Pappy13]

That was my point in my example, but no one ever just came out and said it. A christian should know that divorce isn't allowed just because they are not happy in their marriage, and that remarrying is considered adultery. Hence, what you said, you can't truly repent if you are knowingly committing the sins in the first place.  God knows what's in your heart.

God knows what's in a person's heart, you don't. 

I'm actually divorced.  My 1st wife left me because she wasn't happy.  We were only married a couple years.  I wanted to stay married because I still loved her, but she wouldn't no matter what I said, so I reluctantly agreed to a divorce.  So should I feel like I cannot be with another person because my wife decided that she no longer wanted to be with me?  I don't believe that.  I don't believe that God believes that. 

We were married in a Catholic church and I did not get an anullment.  I got remarried and since we could not be married in a Catholic church, we just went to the justice of the peace to be married.  We have 4 wonderful children from the marriage and it's lasted almost 25 years now.  Do you really think God would look at my 2nd marriage with disdain just because I had been married to someone for a few years that no longer wanted to be with me?  I don't.  My 2nd marriage has actually been a much better marriage than the 1st, but since the 1st was recognized by the church and the 2nd wasn't, according to the Catholic religion, I'm living in sin.  I don't believe that despite what the church believes.  I know what's in my heart and my heart tells me that what I'm doing is not adultery.  My 1st wife has remarried as well and has 4 children from that marriage and she is happy as well.  If both of us are happier and have fuller marriages with our 2nd spouses, why should either of us continue to recognize the 1st marriage that clearly did not work.  I believe that God will see what's in my heart and in my ex-wife's heart and see that what we are doing is not adultery.  I don't really care what anyone else thinks.

In fact if I WERE to have sex with my 1st wife now, I would consider that adultery.  I believe that God would too.

[Dave Gray]

^

I think the point is that you're picking and choosing the parts of Catholicism's Dogma.  Do I think that you shouldn't be able to marry again?  Of course not.  I think you should do what makes you happy. 

But I don't think the Catholic church thinks that you should.  Be their law, I believe that you are sinning against God.  It seems like hogwash to me (and to you as well, apparently).  So that's where the ball unravels.  Once you realize that some of the religion is hogwash, why stop there?


I have to ask you this, Pappy, with respect.  You seem like a smart guy.  You seem reasonable.  Do you really, in your honest heart, believe in the divine birth story?  That's the common tie between all Christians, is that story.  I cannot, for the life of me, believe that.  I never could.  Not as a child and not now.  As I age, I find it harder and harder to understand how normal, rational people can buy into a story that's so completely out there, and that goes against everything that we know to be true about the world around us.  ...not to mention the unreliability of the source (a book from thousands of years ago), handed down from so many generations that were known to be incorrect or intentional fabricators about so many, many other things.

[badger6]

God knows what's in a person's heart, you don't. 

I'm actually divorced.  My 1st wife left me because she wasn't happy.  We were only married a couple years.  I wanted to stay married because I still loved her, but she wouldn't no matter what I said, so I reluctantly agreed to a divorce.  So should I feel like I cannot be with another person because my wife decided that she no longer wanted to be with me?  I don't believe that.  I don't believe that God believes that. 

We were married in a Catholic church and I did not get an anullment.  I got remarried and since we could not be married in a Catholic church, we just went to the justice of the peace to be married.  We have 4 wonderful children from the marriage and it's lasted almost 25 years now.  Do you really think God would look at my 2nd marriage with disdain just because I had been married to someone for a few years that no longer wanted to be with me?  I don't.  My 2nd marriage has actually been a much better marriage than the 1st, but since the 1st was recognized by the church and the 2nd wasn't, according to the Catholic religion, I'm living in sin.  I don't believe that despite what the church believes.  I know what's in my heart and my heart tells me that what I'm doing is not adultery.  My 1st wife has remarried as well and has 4 children from that marriage and she is happy as well.  If both of us are happier and have fuller marriages with our 2nd spouses, why should either of us continue to recognize the 1st marriage that clearly did not work.  I believe that God will see what's in my heart and in my ex-wife's heart and see that what we are doing is not adultery.  I don't really care what anyone else thinks.

I'm not here to judge what you do at all, what you do is actually none of my business. I am just stating what the religion of Christianity says about divorce. I could have picked one of many topics, but I picked divorce for a reason. It is one of the main things that the bible forbids, that people try to rationalize. The bible is very specific and clear on the subject. Like I said though, I don't believe in all this stuff. For that reason alone, you should not care what I think. But in fact what you are saying is that you don't care what the church and the bible say also.

I don't agree with divorce for a different reason. "I'm not happy" Well boo fucking hoo. Marriage isn't about happiness, it's about commitment. It is not your spouses job to make you happy. Anyone that thinks that marriage is about being happy 24/7 is a couple short of a six pack. The way I see it is if you make a commitment, promise, or other wise say that you are going to do something in life, you do it. Common sense, no god, jesus, or divine book needed.  Although one forces anyone to get married, I do realize that there are a few legitimate reasons for divorce. But this "I'm not happy" and "We don't get along" is just an excuse that lazy and selfish people use so that they don't have to put forth the effort required to fix the underlying problems in the relationship.

In fact if I WERE to have sex with my 1st wife now, I would consider that adultery.  I believe that God would too.

Yes he would consider sex with your 1st wife adultery. But that doesn't change the fact that Christianity says that any sexual relations with anyone but your original wife is considered adultery or fornication, regardless of if you remarry or not. See what I mean about Christians picking and choosing when it is convenient for them or fits their purposes.

[Pappy13]

Yes he would consider sex with your 1st wife adultery.

Hold on there.  Why?  According to the church, if I have sex with my first wife now, there's nothing wrong with that.  In their eyes we are still married.  I married her in a church and I never had the marriage anulled.  Why would that be adultery?  We are still married according to the church and according to you.  You can't have it both ways, either I'm married to my first wife still or I'm not.  Which is it?

[Pappy13]

But I don't think the Catholic church thinks that you should.  Be their law, I believe that you are sinning against God.  It seems like hogwash to me (and to you as well, apparently).  So that's where the ball unravels.  Once you realize that some of the religion is hogwash, why stop there?

Because there are many other parts of the religion that I do believe in.  I'm not willing to throw out the whole religion just because I have a hard time with one particular aspect of what the Church says.

I have to ask you this, Pappy, with respect.  You seem like a smart guy.  You seem reasonable.  Do you really, in your honest heart, believe in the divine birth story?

I don't want this to be about me, but yes I do believe it.

Now let me ask you something.  Where in the ten commandments does it talk about divorce?  It doesn't.  Adultery is out, but what does adultery mean?  If we define adultery as a married person having sex with someone other than their spouse, which was not an uncommon definition back in the days when the bible was written, then am I commiting adultery?  No, I'm not having sex with anyone not considered my spouse.  Neither is my wife.  Neither is my ex wife.  The Church has decided that marriage is forever and can't be broken, but I think they are wrong.  I think it can be broken.  I'm not encouraging it and I don't think it should be broken on a whim or just because things get a little rough, but if one person no longer honors the marriage vows, then in effect the marriage is broken regardless of what the Church says.

[badger6]

Hold on there.  Why?  According to the church, if I have sex with my first wife now, there's nothing wrong with that.  In their eyes we are still married.  I married her in a church and I never had the marriage anulled.  Why would that be adultery?  We are still married according to the church.

Well I may be wrong, but from what I remember on the topic, when you get a divorce. Then god would have you stay single and celibate as the course of action. If you do get remarried, you are then bound to your new wife but that doesn't make your divorce any more valid. If I recall correctly, it was a catch 22 type thing. That's why god wants you to stay single if you get divorced. Thanks for pointing that out, I need to find a reference to that. This is the kind of stuff that convinces me think that this stuff just is made up superstitions.