Why do people believe in astrology?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

According to what I have been taught, you are forgiven by God for anything.  The catch is that you have to be truly sorry and not just say the words.  I would assume someone who does the same thing over and over again is not truly sorry and therefore not forgiven.

The most significant philosophical difference between Judaism and Christianity is the perspective of forgiveness.  And why I laugh out loud when someone uses the phase "Judo/Christan values of forgiveness."

In Christianity if you commit a sin against another person you can seek forgiveness from god. 

In Judaism you must first seek forgiveness from the person you sinned against first.  God can still forgive you if you make an earnest effort to make amends and the other unreasonably withholds forgiveness, but you must seek it from the person you wronged first.  You can't go straight to god, unless the sin is against god.  (e.g. breaking sabbath, taking the lords name in vein, etc.)

This makes murder an unforgivable sin in Judaism but forgivable in Christianity.

An outstanding book on topic of forgiveness, its limits and comparison between religions and philosophies is the The Sunflower by Simon Wiesenthal.

[JVides]

^^^I laughed out loud at the thought of a "Judo/Christian". 

"Repent, for the end is nigh!  Hiiiiiyah!  Judo chop!"

[Dave Gray]

If you want to know if I believe all non-Christians go to hell? The answer is yes.

I'm not putting you on trial.  I just want to clarify that that's your position.  I could never believe that.  There are so many people in the world -- children in the jungle, for example, that even if I believed in hell (which I don't) and God (which I don't), that I'd want no part of a God that built a world like that.

Though I was raised Catholic (and maybe they have the same dogma), I was never told that non-christians go to hell.  A friend's mom said that once and I was pretty horrified.  That was during my religious unraveling, though, and might've been the final nail in the coffin.

If I thought that so many people were going to hell, people I cared about, I'd like my life in a constant state of sorrow.  I'd be unable to live, knowing that there was going to be so much suffering for nearly all of the world.  How do you carry that burden?

[Sunstroke]

That was always one of the sticking points for me as well. If I commit what I consider to be a "small" offense, like taking the Lord's name in vain (which I do every day), or not honoring my father and mother (what if I have asshole parents?) and don't ask the Lord for forgiveness for it before I die...I'm sentenced to Hell forever? No appeal process? No parole? Just thrown into the general brimstone population with the rapists and murderers? I mean, seriously...who in God's name (all puns intended) came up with the sentencing structure for the Afterlife Penal System?

The Bible is a book written by man, not God, for the purpose of controlling the behavior of the masses...
Hell is a concept created by man, not God, to enforce that control...

Until proof can be provided to the contrary, this is how I see it.

I should also point out that "faith," feeling" and "belief" do not count as "proof" in my book.

[badger6]

I'm not putting you on trial.  I just want to clarify that that's your position.  I could never believe that.  There are so many people in the world -- children in the jungle, for example, that even if I believed in hell (which I don't) and God (which I don't), that I'd want no part of a God that built a world like that.

Though I was raised Catholic (and maybe they have the same dogma), I was never told that non-christians go to hell.  A friend's mom said that once and I was pretty horrified.  That was during my religious unraveling, though, and might've been the final nail in the coffin.

If I thought that so many people were going to hell, people I cared about, I'd like my life in a constant state of sorrow.  I'd be unable to live, knowing that there was going to be so much suffering for nearly all of the world.  How do you carry that burden?

Well to expand upon that a bit. For me the bible is full of contradictions. God is a jealous god, but jealousy is a sin ? God only wants us to love and warship him. What kind of narcissistic sickness is that ? God loves you more than anything, but if you don't kiss his ass you will suffer forever. Not to mention that god knows everything that ever has happened and ever will happen. So god knows the future. He knows if I am going to heaven or hell already. So it is predetermined where I will go. What's the point in doing anything the bible says if god already knows the outcome and it is predetermined ?

[badger6]

The Bible is a book written by man, not God, for the purpose of controlling the behavior of the masses...
Hell is a concept created by man, not God, to enforce that control...

And generate revenue of course !!!

Until proof can be provided to the contrary, this is how I see it.

I should also point out that "faith," feeling" and "belief" do not count as "proof" in my book.

For religious people, faith, feeling, and belief is the only proof that they have. I was telling a southern baptist preacher how I fell about religion and he got all hot and bothered and asked me if I could prove the there is no god. That conversation ended right there. The fundamental flaw there is that that person making the claim is the one that bears the burden of proof. He didn't understand that you cannot absolutely prove that something doesn't exist. Just like he couldn't prove that my giant invisible pink chicken god named earl doesn't exist............ 

[Sunstroke]

The year I got out of the Army (23 years ago), I had a Southern Baptist Minister in Columbia, SC, ask me if I was the Antichrist...just for taking notes during his sermon and asking him questions about it afterward.

I've only been inside a Church once since that day...and that was to hear a contemporary Christian rock band (Jars of Clay) perform.

Just like he couldn't prove that my giant invisible pink chicken god named earl doesn't exist...

Our Father, who art in the Henhouse, Earl be thy name...

[badger6]

Our Father, who art in the Henhouse, Earl be thy name...

LMFAO, but no more unbelievable than an invisible old guy in the sky that grants miracles if you close your eyes and talk to yourself. Shit at least chickens really exist. Just add a little pink dye, growth hormones and steroids and whammo. BOW TO EARL McCHICKEN or you will be deep fried and eaten by Earl's coworkers.

[Pappy13]

That was always one of the sticking points for me as well. If I commit what I consider to be a "small" offense, like taking the Lord's name in vain (which I do every day), or not honoring my father and mother (what if I have asshole parents?) and don't ask the Lord for forgiveness for it before I die...I'm sentenced to Hell forever? No appeal process? No parole?

No, at least not for Catholics.

Catholics believe that there is a 3rd "place" called purgatory which is a temporary place.  Now it's been awhile since I've really went over this, so I might be a little rusty on the details, but basically speaking Catholics believe that you only go to Hell in extreme circumstances.  Most everyone goes to Purgatory first where you have to "wait your turn" into Heaven while you are cleansed of your "minor" sins.  How long you are there depends upon how bad your offenses were, but eventually everyone that goes to Purgatory ends up in Heaven.

[Sunstroke]

^^^
OK, so Hell is a concept created by mankind.
And Purgatory was a logical compromise created by mankind once it realized that the people that Hell was created to control were rejecting it due to Hell's "unforgiving" membership criteria.

[Pappy13]

So god knows the future. He knows if I am going to heaven or hell already. So it is predetermined where I will go. What's the point in doing anything the bible says if god already knows the outcome and it is predetermined ?

It's not predetermined.  Yes, God knows what choice you will eventually make, but the choice was not predetermined for you, you will make the choice.  God only already knows what choice you will make, he didn't make the choice for you.  You are attempting to write yourself out of the equation and therefore remove your responsibility.  That's absolutely not the case.  You can change your destiny at any point, the fact that God already knows what you will do in the end, does not alter that.

[Pappy13]

For religious people, faith, feeling, and belief is the only proof that they have.

That's poorly worded.  Faith is the ability to believe without proof.

I was telling a southern baptist preacher how I fell about religion and he got all hot and bothered and asked me if I could prove the there is no god.

I find this very hard to believe.  That must have been about the worst southern baptist preacher I've ever heard of.  Faith has absolutely NOTHING to do with proof so unless he was trying to make a point about what Faith is, there would be absolutely no reason for him to ever ask someone to prove God does not exist.

[Pappy13]

OK, so Hell is a concept created by mankind.
And Purgatory was a logical compromise created by mankind once it realized that the people that Hell was created to control were rejecting it due to Hell's "unforgiving" membership criteria.

So you're rejecting religion because Hell is too extreme and Purgatory isn't extreme enough?

By the way, you might be interested in this link.  Hell as described in the Bible may have very little in common with what most people associate with Hell.  In fact it may mean exactly what some of you have been suggesting is what happens to us all, which is merely a grave.  In other words those condemed to hell have no afterlife, they are put into the ground and that's the end of it.  Only those saved have an afterlife.  If that's true than what some of you are saying is actually in complete agreement with the Bible.  If you don't believe in God, you will end up in the ground, end of story.

What does the Bible teach us about Hell?

[badger6]

It's not predetermined.  Yes, God knows what choice you will eventually make, but the choice was not predetermined for you, you will make the choice.  God only already knows what choice you will make, he didn't make the choice for you.  You are attempting to write yourself out of the equation and therefore remove your responsibility.  That's absolutely not the case.  You can change your destiny at any point, the fact that God already knows what you will do in the end, does not alter that.

If god knows 100% what is going to happen then there is no need for me to do anything. If god knows 100% that I am going to hell then there is nothing that I can do to change it. because if I do change it, god was wrong. How am I trying to remove any responsibility ? Responsibility from what ? None of this stuff is real, these are hypothetical discussions.

That's poorly worded.  Faith is the ability to believe without proof.

Faith is emotion based, not fact based. Faith is not involved when real facts or proof are present. Faith only rears its ugly head when someone has to substitute emotions when there is a lack of evidence, facts, or proof in their favor.

I find this very hard to believe.  That must have been about the worst southern baptist preacher I've ever heard of.  Faith has absolutely NOTHING to do with proof so unless he was trying to make a point about what Faith is, there would be absolutely no reason for him to ever ask someone to prove God does not exist.

Yes pappy, they do this shit all the time to try to prove their point of view. Another popular one they use when someone questions gods existence is to ask. Does wind exist ? Then when you say yes, they ask. How do you know it exists. The obvious answer to that is, that I can feel it. So I feel wind, so therefore it exists. They feel god, so therefore he exists. Pure poppycock !!!!

[Pappy13]

If god knows 100% what is going to happen then there is no need for me to do anything.

God knows the future.  He knows what you will do BEFORE you do it, therefore the decision has NOT been made yet, therefore it has not been predetermined.  You are in control of your destiny.

You are trying to invalidate a belief system with flawed logic.