Why do people believe in astrology?

[badger6]

He knows what you will do BEFORE you do it, therefore the decision has NOT been made yet, therefore it has not been predetermined.

You are trying to invalidate a belief system with flawed logic.

No I think that your logic is flawed. You said that god knows what I will do BEFORE I do it. So that means that he has established what I will do before i will do it. Hence the prefix PRE.

predetermined - past tense of pre·de·ter·mine (Verb)
1. Establish or decide in advance.
2. Predestine (an outcome or course of events).   

He has established what I will do BEFORE I do it, like you said.

[Pappy13]

I know what predetermined means, there's no point in giving me the definition.  You are misusing the term.  You are confusing knowing the future with determining the future.

How about an example.  Let say I have a time machine.  I go forward 100 years and find that the New England Patriots win the SuperBowl (again).  Now I go back to my previous time.  Have I DETERMINED history.  No, I have not DETERMINED anything, it was DETERMINED while I was in the time machine, but I did NOTHING.  I skipped 100 years of history and simply found out the results of what has happend.  People WILL change history over the next 100 years.  Everyone will.  I haven't changed that, I simply skipped over it all and went to the end and found out what they changed.  That's it.  I did NOTHING to determine it.  It WILL be determined by those people WHEN they do it.

In other words what he knows doesn't influence what you will do, what you will do influences what he knows.  You have the control.

I can't explain it any better than that.  Disagree if you must.

[Sunstroke]

So you're rejecting religion because Hell is too extreme and Purgatory isn't extreme enough?

I'm rejecting religion for the same reason I reject most myths...zero proof and an unbelievable premise. Hell and Purgatory qualify under both conditions.

[badger6]

In other words what he knows doesn't influence what you will do, what you will do influences what he knows.  You have the control.

I can't explain it any better than that.  Disagree if you must.

Guess we have to agree to disagree. I don't understand what you are saying. On one hand you are saying that god already knows what is going to happen to me when I die. On the other hand you are saying that I have free will to make my choices. But if he already knows what is going to happen, my choices are irrelevant, the end outcome is the same. If god knows right this second that I am 100% going to hell, what the hell can I do about it ? And if I can do something about it and change my destiny, god was wrong in his "knowing" what would happen to me !!!

[Dave Gray]

^ That is a classic paradox.  If you see the future and change what you do, did you really see the future?

I'll even take God out of the equation. 

Is there really free will, even without God involved?  Your "decisions" are caused by impulses, chemistry, outside factors, etc.  You have the illusion of free will because you gather all of the info, send it to your brain and make a choice.  But, if you were to play out that same moment a million times, since those factors will be the same, so will your choice.  Therefore, are you really even making a choice?  Or are you just a slave to your biology?

[badger6]

^ That is a classic paradox.  If you see the future and change what you do, did you really see the future?

I'll even take God out of the equation. 

Is there really free will, even without God involved?  Your "decisions" are caused by impulses, chemistry, outside factors, etc.  You have the illusion of free will because you gather all of the info, send it to your brain and make a choice.  But, if you were to play out that same moment a million times, since those factors will be the same, so will your choice.  Therefore, are you really even making a choice?  Or are you just a slave to your biology?

See you guys in hell, 666

ha ha haaaaa

[CF DolFan]

I'm not putting you on trial.  I just want to clarify that that's your position.  I could never believe that.  There are so many people in the world -- children in the jungle, for example, that even if I believed in hell (which I don't) and God (which I don't), that I'd want no part of a God that built a world like that.

Though I was raised Catholic (and maybe they have the same dogma), I was never told that non-christians go to hell.  A friend's mom said that once and I was pretty horrified.  That was during my religious unraveling, though, and might've been the final nail in the coffin.

If I thought that so many people were going to hell, people I cared about, I'd like my life in a constant state of sorrow.  I'd be unable to live, knowing that there was going to be so much suffering for nearly all of the world.  How do you carry that burden?

I borrowed some of this because I think it is a very good condensed version.  I started to write all the versus concerning this but it would be pretty large. The truth is it would take a while to go through the Bible to point out these things. As I have said before, you can't understand the Bible unless you have read the whole thing but I can summerize

Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell? First we must note that the Bible says God will judge all people righteously.

1) there will be a different judgment for those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard.
2) Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law.
3) Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.
4) The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts

James even warns "teachers" of the faith that they will be judged more accordingly.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly (James 3:1)

Well to expand upon that a bit. For me the bible is full of contradictions. God is a jealous god, but jealousy is a sin ? God only wants us to love and warship him. What kind of narcissistic sickness is that ? God loves you more than anything, but if you don't kiss his ass you will suffer forever. Not to mention that god knows everything that ever has happened and ever will happen. So god knows the future. He knows if I am going to heaven or hell already. So it is predetermined where I will go. What's the point in doing anything the bible says if god already knows the outcome and it is predetermined ?

We were created to fellowship with Him ... like it or not. We can never be content without God and try to fill that void in different ways. There is a part of all of us that isn't whole until we actually do this. The desire to always want more and feel like it isn't enough once we get it for example.  The constant search for pleasure is another.

Again I borrow the text from "God and Science" for the "jealousy" comments.

Jealousy is often thought of as being a negative trait. So, many people think that the Bible's description of God as jealous means that He must be a divine hypocrite. However, this page shows that in the original languages in which the Bible is written, the words do not have those negative definitions. Since the word used to describe the jealousy of God is not even the same word used to describe human jealousy, it is clear that the apparent contradiction is just a result of an inability of the translated language (English) to accurately reflect the original language (Hebrew). There is no slight on the character of God in the original language.


The doctrine that God is a jealous God comes from the Old Testament books of the law of Moses. The "jealousy" is always in the context of idol worship, beginning in the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20.

"

• You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:5)
  for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- (Exodus 34:14)
  "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:24)
  'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Deuteronomy 5:9)
  for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off, the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 6:15)

What these five verses have in common is that they all share the same Hebrew adjective, qannâ' translated with the English word "jealous." The interesting thing about this word is that it is only used in reference to God. In no instance is the word qannâ' used to describe human jealousy. The reason that God is "jealous" is because He wants people to choose to love Him. Jesus said that the most important commandment was to love God.7 God does not want us to waste out time worshipping pretend gods that do not exist.

Whereas God's "jealousy" is primarily restricted to a jealousy over the worship of idols that competes with His love to prevent a dedicated relationship with Him, jealousy between people takes on quite a number of forms. Two different Hebrew words are used to describe human jealousy. The Hebrew verb qânâ'  refers to a passionate jealousy or envy. The Hebrew noun qin'âh  takes on a wide range of meanings from sexual passion (or jealousy) to a zeal for God to anger or envy. The exact meaning (and the English translation is usually determined from the context

[CF DolFan]

Forgot to respond to God knowing what you will do thing.

God knowing what you will decide has no bearing on Him deciding your fate. Its still your choice. The only difference is He knows what you will do and in fact, knew you before you were born.

If you decide to follow Christ at any time in your life, He already knew you were coming. If any Christian falls from grace it isn't a surprise to God as He already knew it was going to happen. In this we can never gain His approval or disappoint Him because he already knew it would happen. Its just that it was opur choice to do so.

[Phishfan]

^ That is a classic paradox.  If you see the future and change what you do, did you really see the future?

I'll even take God out of the equation. 

Is there really free will, even without God involved?  Your "decisions" are caused by impulses, chemistry, outside factors, etc.  You have the illusion of free will because you gather all of the info, send it to your brain and make a choice.  But, if you were to play out that same moment a million times, since those factors will be the same, so will your choice.  Therefore, are you really even making a choice?  Or are you just a slave to your biology?

I don't think you naturally would make the same choice a million times in your example. I mean on some very big and basic choices (most of us would never stab someone over a simple disagreement, some of us might) but on other more impulse things (making a choice to approach a girl, buying that candy bar at the checkout, etc.) I think the outside factors as well as impulse you mentioned become a variable which would cause you to make opposing choices over time.

[Sunstroke]

Still not seeing anything that doesn't point to religion being a man-made mechanism for controlling the behavior of others...

Jealousy is definitely not a trait I would attribute to a God.
Man? Sure...but not an omnipotent entity.

[CF DolFan]

Still not seeing anything that doesn't point to religion being a man-made mechanism for controlling the behavior of others...

Jealousy is definitely not a trait I would attribute to a God.
Man? Sure...but not an omnipotent entity.

If you read what I just posted you will see it's two different things. Unfortunately the English language does not have words that translates from Hebrew. They are clearly two different things in Hebrew.

[Pappy13]

^ That is a classic paradox.  If you see the future and change what you do, did you really see the future?

Unfortunately that's different from what we are talking about.  In your example, your knowledge of the future influenced your choices.  In that case, yes knowing the future could result in changing the future.  But if you change what you do, did you see the future before or after you decided to change what you do?  If you saw the future that was after you decided to change, then yes you did see the future.  That's what God sees.  The future after everyone has made all their choices.

If god knows right this second that I am 100% going to hell, what the hell can I do about it ? And if I can do something about it and change my destiny, god was wrong in his "knowing" what would happen to me !!!

Because God isn't judging you on "right this second" ,he knows what you WILL do in the future and he's judging you on that.

What you can't wrap your head around is time.  You live in the now and only understand things based on what you currently know.  The future to you is unknown.  It's not the same for God.  He knows what the future holds, so he knows what you WILL do.  For you to say "if he knows right this second" explains why you don't understand.  He doesn't know "right this second" that's what YOU know, he knows what the future holds for you, YOU don't.  The choice has not been made by you yet, but when you make it either way, God will know what choice you made.

It's really very simple when you quit thinking in the "right this second" world and envision the future as something as easily to see as the past, the world that God lives in.

Here's the same timeline for you and God.

You:

Past      "RIGHT NOW"        "THE FUTURE"                 "YOU DIE"   
|------------|----------------|-------------------|

God:
 
Past            Past                     Past                            Past   
|------------|----------------|-------------------|



God doesn't know "Right now" on this timeline, only you do.  For him EVERYTHING is in the past, even things that have not happend yet for you and I.  You don't know what will happen in "THE FUTURE", but God does because for him it's in the past.  When you make a choice in "THE FUTURE" God will have witnessed this in the past even though it hasn't happend yet for you.  So God knows what will happen when "YOU DIE", but that doesn't mean it's already happened for you, it's hasn't happened yet for you and therefore it has not been decided yet by you, but God still knows it because for him its in the past.

[Sunstroke]

If you read what I just posted you will see it's two different things. Unfortunately the English language does not have words that translates from Hebrew. They are clearly two different things in Hebrew.

I did read everything you posted...and the semantics you're now using as a disclaimer still don't take the "jealousy" to a place where it is reasonable to consider it as coming from an omnipotent entity.

God is in your head, my friend...and in mine. Until actual "proof" is presented, the "right vs wrong" in my head says that Heaven and Hell are fictitious places that only exist in archaic literature.

[badger6]

Unfortunately that's different from what we are talking about.  In your example, your knowledge of the future influenced your choices.  In that case, yes knowing the future could result in changing the future.  But if you change what you do, did you see the future before or after you decided to change what you do?  If you saw the future that was after you decided to change, then yes you did see the future.  That's what God sees.  The future after everyone has made all their choices.
Because God isn't judging you on "right this second" ,he knows what you WILL do in the future and he's judging you on that.

What you can't wrap your head around is time.  You live in the now and only understand things based on what you currently know.  The future to you is unknown.  It's not the same for God.  He knows what the future holds, so he knows what you WILL do.  For you to say "if he knows right this second" explains why you don't understand.  He doesn't know "right this second" that's what YOU know, he knows what the future holds for you, YOU don't.  The choice has not been made by you yet, but when you make it either way, God will know what choice you made.

It's really very simple when you quit thinking in the "right this second" world and envision the future as something as easily to see as the past, the world that God lives in.

Here's the same timeline for you and God.

You:

Past      "RIGHT NOW"        "THE FUTURE"                 "YOU DIE"   
|------------|----------------|-------------------|

God:
 
Past            Past                     Past                            Past   
|------------|----------------|-------------------|



God doesn't know "Right now" on this timeline, only you do.  For him EVERYTHING is in the past, even things that have not happend yet for you and I.  You don't know what will happen in "THE FUTURE", but God does because for him it's in the past.  When you make a choice in "THE FUTURE" God will have witnessed this in the past even though it hasn't happend yet for you.  So God knows what will happen when "YOU DIE", but that doesn't mean it's already happened for you, it's hasn't happened yet for you and therefore it has not been decided yet by you, but God still knows it because for him its in the past.

Are you saying that God knows if I am going to heaven or hell already ? Are you saying that God already knows all of my decisions ? Are you saying that God knows the future and what he knows it is 100% correct. 

[Pappy13]

Are you saying that God knows if I am going to heaven or hell already ?

Define already.  Who's timeline are you talking about yours or his because they aren't the same.  His already is not the same as your already.