Kickball strategy question.

[Dave Gray]

For those that don't know, adult kickball is very much like baseball, except there are a few rule differences, as well as different strategies.

The main rule difference is that you can hit someone with the ball on the base-path as an out.

- Bunting is huge.  Because the ball is cumbersome, the easiest way to get on base is to bunt. 

- Because the sport is co-ed, you need to pay attention to who is next in your lineup when making decisions.  And 99% of girls can't kick it out of the infield.  So, for example, you don't ever want to have a girl kicking with bases loaded.  So, with 2 on with a guy up and a girl next, you have the guy kick away (especially with 2 outs). 

The question that we were debating last night is this:

1st player: bunt down 3rd.  Safe at 1st.
2nd player: bunt down 3rd, players safe on 1st and 2nd.
3rd player: (girl) bunt down 1st...

NOW...

As 1st baseman, it's my job to charge bunts down the 1st base line.   It's the RF's job to cover the bag at first, but she's realistically not going to get there, and even if she did, she doesn't have the arm-strength to make the throw to home, should the guy run home.  My options are to "eat it" and load the bases OR flick the ball at her legs, getting the out, but giving up a run (from the guy who will round 3rd and come home.)

So, the question is -- Do you take the out?

In my case (the same situation happened twice with the same girl), I threw at her legs both times, recorded 2 outs and gave up 2 runs.  Knowing the quality of my team (not being great defensively and having our weaker players in the outfield), I am of the mind that you take outs when you can get them.  We're also the kind of team that gives up runs in bunches.  We'll give up 7 runs, but 5 will come in one inning, for example. 

But some think that you're better off loading the bases and forcing the hand of the batter to deliver a big kick.

Where do you stand?

[CF DolFan]

Does a ball have to be thrown in order to be out? I ask because of the soccer players I am associated with. They can trap and nail you by kicking it much faster than a normal person can pick up a ball and throw it.

We have picnics and parties and once in a while we play kickball. Being they are soccer that is how some play but I never thought about whether that was actually legal. 

[Dave Gray]

No, you can get an out a traditional way (throwing to the baseman on the base, as a force) OR
- tag them with the ball
- throw it at them
- kick it at them
- deflect it into them
- it can bounce into them from their own kicker

Kicking is used by fielders, but rarely for hitting into someone (but only because the risk is so high).  Kicking is more often used to get the ball in from the outfield quickly.  But occasionally, you'll see a 3rd baseman kick the ball to first -- it's rare, because it usually ends up with a ball out of bounds and a free path to 2nd.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I have a question about your question.  

3rd player: (girl)

 

And 99% of girls can't kick it out of the infield.

it's the RF's job to cover the bag at first, but she's realistically not going to get there,

Lets review:  There is a girl "at bat".  99% of the girls can't hit the ball out of the infield.  Why the heck is the RF playing so deep that she can't cover 1st base?  

[Pappy13]

I have 2 questions?

1)  What is the pitcher doing on these bunts?  I'm not familiar with co-ed adult kickball, but from when I was a kid if there was that much bunting going on, the pitcher would be charging the plate as soon as the ball was pitched waiting for bunts.  Is that somehow not allowed or is it just too dangerous for the pitcher to get that close in case they actually kick the ball?

2)  Can't you also record an out by simply tagging the player with the ball in your hands just like in baseball/softball?  My first thought on a bunt down first base line would be to try to tag the runner rather than throwing the ball at them and then try to throw the ball home if the player tries to score from 2nd base.  In your scenario you are talking about a girl on 2nd I believe, she shouldn't be able to score that quickly and if she does try to score and you have the ball in your hands you could throw the ball at her to get her out.

If you can't simply tag the batter and hold the person on 2nd from scoring, I think I would be inclined to simply eat it and take my chances with a guy coming to the plate and the bases full.  That way you preserve a run and also preserve a force play at any base.  By hitting the player in the legs and allowing a run to score you are also eliminating a possible force out.

[Phishfan]

I seem to agree that you take an out when you can get it. I'd really need to think on the strategy a bit more but my gut says take the out.

[Dave Gray]

I have a question about your question.  
  

Lets review:  There is a girl "at bat".  99% of the girls can't hit the ball out of the infield.  Why the heck is the RF playing so deep that she can't cover 1st base?  

That's a fair question.  When I say "can't kick out of the infield", that isn't literal.  They just can't get hits to the outfield, kick over heads, kick into gaps, etc.  The most damage they can do is a shallow blooper.  The outfielders do move in and are supposed to be able to cover the bag.  However, realistically, it just isn't going to happen in most cases, for someone who's not that familiar with kickball to be able to make that judgment.  There are some advanced girls in my leagues, but not this particular one.

[Pappy13]

Here's how we would have handled the same situation in baseball.  Pitcher covers 1st base line on bunts, 1st baseman stays put.  3rd baseman covers 3rd base line on bunts, shortstop covers 3rd base, 2nd baseman covers 2nd.

The pitcher then has 3 options if they field the bunt, tagging the batter on their way to 1st base to get the out and hold the runner at 3rd, throwing to 1st base to get the out and the 1st baseman immediately looking to throw out the player at home if they try to score or simply eating the ball and loading the bases if option 1 or 2 doesn't seem likely.

[Dave Gray]

I have 2 questions?

1)  What is the pitcher doing on these bunts?  I'm not familiar with co-ed adult kickball, but from when I was a kid if there was that much bunting going on, the pitcher would be charging the plate as soon as the ball was pitched waiting for bunts.  Is that somehow not allowed or is it just too dangerous for the pitcher to get that close in case they actually kick the ball?

The rule is that there is a line drawn from first base to 3rd base.  No player is allowed to occupy that triangle (to home plate) until the kicker makes contact with the ball.  So, the pitcher can charge (and often does), but can't go until the ball is kicked.  Balls up the first base line get to the first baseman much quicker, especially when you're expecting it and the 1st baseman can time his approach.

2)  Can't you also record an out by simply tagging the player with the ball in your hands just like in baseball/softball?  My first thought on a bunt down first base line would be to try to tag the runner rather than throwing the ball at them and then try to throw the ball home if the player tries to score from 2nd base.  In your scenario you are talking about a girl on 2nd I believe, she shouldn't be able to score that quickly and if she does try to score and you have the ball in your hands you could throw the ball at her to get her out.

Yes, you can, but in these cases, the runner runs past the ball, so there's no opportunity to hit the player and still be holding the ball.  I am throwing back towards 1st, after already having run past the runner.

[Pappy13]

The rule is that there is a line drawn from first base to 3rd base.  No player is allowed to occupy that triangle (to home plate) until the kicker makes contact with the ball.  So, the pitcher can charge (and often does), but can't go until the ball is kicked.  Balls up the first base line get to the first baseman much quicker, especially when you're expecting it and the 1st baseman can time his approach.

Ah, well that changes everything.

In that case I think what I would do is have your pitcher or 2nd baseman cover 1st base while the 1st baseman charges.  1st baseman then would have the option of either trying to get the out at first by throwing the ball to whomever is covering 1st (assuming this is someone who could then try to get the runner out going home) or eating it.  No throwing at the runner just to get the out since it's gonna allow the run and give up the force at the same time.  If you can at least have a shot at getting the out and getting the runner at the plate, I'd try it, but not sacrifice a run to get an out and give up the force play.

[Dave Gray]

The force play is almost meaningless.  In bunts (which are most plays), you get your outs at 1st, primarily (if the batter is doing what they're supposed to.)  It's rare to throw from home plate to 2nd, as the distance is hard to manage with a ball of that size.  Force plays only come into play when teams are mismanaged (bunting down 3rd with men on 1st and 2nd) or when bases are loaded, because you try to get your bunts out at home.

And you can't really have the pitcher or 2nd baseman cover 1st.  You need the pitcher to stay on the mound (in general) because there's a rule that you can't advance bases if the ball is back to the pitcher on the mound.  Plus, the pitcher needs to charge as well, in case the bunt goes ahead (instead of down the line like it's supposed to.

[Brian Fein]

Seems like loading the bases and bunting constantly is a sitting duck situation.

Fisrtly, to me, the RF covering first seems wrong.  Can't the 2B cover and the SS take 2nd?  This seems to make more sense.
secondly, I'd give up the out to hold the run.  Unless there's already 2 outs, then take the 3rd out and go home.  Because the next batter with bases loaded, if he bunts (which you say most plays are bunts) you get the easy force out at home.  Rinse, Repeat.

Fundamentals says that no out is more valuable than a run (with less than 2 outs on the board).  Unless runs are commonplace in kickball and every game is 18-15 score, I'd definitely think giving up the out to save the run is better.

Not to mention that what happens if you throw at her legs and miss - the run scores, maybe another run, and you still don't get the out.

[Dave Gray]

Bunts are what people do when bases are open.  (in most cases)

When bases are full, you kick away.  Even if it's caught, runs come in.  ...and this isn't the MLB.  Lots and lots and lots of balls are dropped in the outfield.

You have to throw conventional baseball wisdom out the window, because of the size of the ball and the talent level of the people involved.

[Brian Fein]

I was actually considering my softball experience, which is of course closer to baseball than kickball, but there is still a lot of "mistakes."

But, regardless, with bases loaded you have a force out at every base.  More opportunity to get that next out and more onus on the batter to make a play.  You said that "kicking away" is less likely to get you on base than bunting.  If you take the out, a run scores and you get an out, but you leave a runner on third (presumably the guy rounds second and stops at third) and he can/will score on the next play anyway.

I am starting to think your strategy depends greatly on who the on-deck batter is.  If its Pele, or if its Paris Hilton, the strategies might be different.

[Pappy13]

The force play is almost meaningless.  In bunts (which are most plays), you get your outs at 1st, primarily (if the batter is doing what they're supposed to.)  It's rare to throw from home plate to 2nd, as the distance is hard to manage with a ball of that size.  Force plays only come into play when teams are mismanaged (bunting down 3rd with men on 1st and 2nd) or when bases are loaded, because you try to get your bunts out at home.

In that case I think I would have to favor eating the ball.  I don't like the concept of giving up a run to get an out, I'd rather prevent the run and keep the force play at the plate in tact and force the next batter to make a decision as to what they are gonna do.  By taking the out and letting the runner score you are effectively taking any decision away from the batter, they can bunt down 3rd with little chance they'll become an out and effectively put you right back into the same situation you were just in.

And you can't really have the pitcher or 2nd baseman cover 1st.  You need the pitcher to stay on the mound (in general) because there's a rule that you can't advance bases if the ball is back to the pitcher on the mound.  Plus, the pitcher needs to charge as well, in case the bunt goes ahead (instead of down the line like it's supposed to.

That explains why the pitcher can't cover 1st, but it doesn't explain why the 2nd baseman couldn't cover first.