Kickball strategy question.

[Pappy13]

Bunts are what people do when bases are open.  (in most cases)

When bases are full, you kick away.  Even if it's caught, runs come in.  ...and this isn't the MLB.  Lots and lots and lots of balls are dropped in the outfield.

You have to throw conventional baseball wisdom out the window, because of the size of the ball and the talent level of the people involved.

Ok, I'm trying to get a picture of this in my head.  I played co-ed softball so I'm not completely clueless what you're talking about, but let me ask a couple more questions to get a good picture in my head.

What does your defensive lineup look like? In co-ed softball, our line-up looked like the following assuming the normal numbering system for positions 1-pitcher, 2-catcher, 3-1st, 4-2nd, 5-3rd, 6-SS, 7-left, 8-center, 9-right, 10-rover.

1-MALE, 2-FEMALE, 3-FEMALE, 4-MALE, 5-FEMALE, 6-MALE, 7-MALE, 8-FEMALE, 9-MALE, 10-FEMALE

We had 2 fairly decent female players and they played 1st and 3rd, but you could swap the 1st and 2nd baseman.  Either way you pretty much always have females flanked with males on either side of them.  On fly balls the males tried to cover the females the best they could which meant that they would call them off of fly balls if they could get there unless the female was pretty good and didn't need the help.  Is that pretty much how it is in kick ball?  There were still plenty of times that balls were hit into places that players couldn't get to, but rarely did some little pop-up go uncaught.

I guess what I'm driving at is trying to determine just hard it is to get a hit.  On one hand you're saying that almost everyone bunts when there are bases open and I'm just having a hard time figuring out why that is.  Is that just a courtesy thing or is it really that difficult to get a hit?  If it is, then I would think you would WANT to keep the bases loaded and force someone to get a hit to drive in runs rather than score on a bunt, so that would favor eating the ball. 

On the other hand you seem to be saying that balls drop in the outfield all the time.  If balls drop in the outfield all the time, then your logic seems sound, take the out when you can get it, but then why is bunting so prevelant?  Why not kick away more often and avoid the whole bases loaded thing constantly?  I can see maybe having your females bunt to get on if they are not strong kickers, but guys too?  Anytime there are bases open?  I would think you would want your guys kicking away whenever there was anyone on base to move the runners.

I seem to be missing something.

[Phishfan]

I think people are also thinking about throwing a baseball or softball. They keep brining up forcing an out at the plate. You aren't going to be able to throw that big rubber ball from the outfield (remember kick away is the normal plan with bases loaded) to home plate and get anyone out. By not taking an out when you get it you are in double jeopardy, you didn't get an out when you had the chance and you are still giving up a run.

You could be in a position of having one out , a run scored and a person in scoring position (second base I assume) if you take the out. If you eat the ball like is being proposed this sounds like the best possible scenario. The person kicks away, even if you catch the ball the runner on third scores. Depending on who catches the ball in the outfield and what they do with it then depends on if you only have one runner in scoring position or two. Either way, you likely still have two base runners on instead of one and you only have one out (and you still gave up a run).

[Pappy13]

Ok, I went back and read your first post again and I understand.  You wouldn't have a guy bunt to load the bases or if the bases were loaded or if there were 2 outs, they only bunt to be assured of getting on base and really very little chance of causing an out and no chance of causing the bases to be loaded with a girl coming up.

Ok, then I'm definately on the side of eating the ball and letting the girl take 1st base, let me explain.

If you do what you did, get the out and let the runner score, here's what you end up with, 1 player on base (2nd or 3rd) with a guy coming to the plate.  What's to prevent the guy from bunting and the girl behind him bunting?  Nothing.  Now you have another guy at the plate, you've already let in a run, the bases are loaded (possibly) and all you have to show for it is 1 out.  You have effectively put yourself into the same position again just to record a single out and no one has had to kick there way onto base. 

I think I'd put the guy into the position of having to kick the ball rather than bunt his way on and hope to catch it and record the out that way.  You would have recorded 1 out(the GUY rather than the GIRL), have 2 players on base (1st and 2nd presumably) and have allowed 1 run in (player on 3rd tags) with a girl coming to the plate.  I think that's a better scenario to be in.

[Phishfan]

You are assuming that no one got an out with either of those bunts. I don't like that line of thinking. What if the guy bunts and you get him out? Then you have two outs.

One thing I have learned about strategy and playing pool. You can play a defensive game all day long (what I consider eating the ball in this scenario) but in order to win you usually have to step up and make a play yourself (going for the out rather than playing strategy the entire time).

It is all theory and both sides can likely help or hurt you. I think it is really a gut call in this case because no matter what choice you make, something can go wrong or right with either choice.

[Pappy13]

You are assuming that no one got an out with either of those bunts. I don't like that line of thinking. What if the guy bunts and you get him out? Then you have two outs.

Well I'm going with the assumption that bunting is a sure way on base for a guy as long as there is a base open.  Sounds like that is pretty much true or else guys wouldn't bunt whenever a base was open.

Sounds like the only way to record an out on a guy is to force him to kick the ball and have a chance at catching it in the air.

[Dave Gray]

Bunting gives you the best chance to get on base because 3 things have to happen:  the fielder has to correctly play the ball (which is actually pretty difficult with a ball that's bouncy), they have to set and throw, and 1B has to catch.

Guys do not, by any means, automatically get on base.  The ball comes in spinning, so while it's almost impossible to throw out the perfect bunt, most bunts aren't perfect.  Kicking away can actually make it harder for your baserunners, too.  Imagine a runner on 1st.  If there's a bunt, they are on 2nd, uncontested.  If there is a hit to the outfield, they can EASILY get thrown out at 2nd.  Remember, it's not like baseball.  The ball dies because it has so much surface area, so unless it's crushed, it's not a deep ball.

[Pappy13]

Bunting gives you the best chance to get on base because 3 things have to happen:  the fielder has to correctly play the ball (which is actually pretty difficult with a ball that's bouncy), they have to set and throw, and 1B has to catch.

Well not really, you can hit the runner with the ball, but I understand what you are saying.

Guys do not, by any means, automatically get on base.  The ball comes in spinning, so while it's almost impossible to throw out the perfect bunt, most bunts aren't perfect.

But I'm assuming that your odds are better than trying to kick the ball and risk it being caught in the air.  If that's not true then why would you ever bunt?

Kicking away can actually make it harder for your baserunners, too.  Imagine a runner on 1st.  If there's a bunt, they are on 2nd, uncontested.  If there is a hit to the outfield, they can EASILY get thrown out at 2nd.

Which again is why I say you should eat the ball and make them put it in play with 3 runners on.  Earlier you were saying that force outs aren't really an issue, but now you just said they are.  It doesn't really matter whether or not you actually toss the ball to a player to get a force out or not, if you are just able to hit them with the ball as they are trying to run they are out. A runner who HAS to run (force play) is in jeopardy on any balls to the field.  That was my point earlier.

Remember, it's not like baseball.  The ball dies because it has so much surface area, so unless it's crushed, it's not a deep ball.

Exactly.  Lots of chances to get players out when the bases are loaded.  You can catch the ball in the air, catch it on 1 hop and throw someone out at a base or hit them with the ball, kick it into them, tag them etc.  With all those runners who HAVE to run, there's a lot of possible ways to get players out.

Not only that but you have to consider WHO you might get out.  In your scenario you are leaving 1 player (girl) on the bases with a run scored and 1 out and a guy coming to the plate. He has multiple options.  He can kick it long or bunt.  The girl behind him can do the same.

In my scenario you are leaving 3 players on the bases (at least 1 girl if not 2), with no runs scored and no outs with a guy coming to the plate.  He doesn't have as many options.  If he tries to bunt, there's a very good chance that you can get the lead runner out and have 1 outs recorded and no runs scored, he pretty much has to kick it.  If he kicks it, you can catch it and possibly even get another player out if they try to tag, by hitting them with the ball.  Granted that you're probably not gonna get the guy at home, but the other 2 players are probably gonna have to stay unless it's a clean hit.  Even if it is a clean hit, you still have chances to get players out with all those players running.

In your scenario you are taking out the 1 player who is the LEAST valuable in the whole scenario, the batter (a girl) and letting the MOST valuable person score.  You want to take out the lead runner if possible and failing that you would like to take out one of the other runners other than the batter.  If you can't do that then holding everyone to 1 base and allowing no one to score I think would be more valueable as you're leaving lots of runners on the bases to potentially get out (including the lead runner even if it's only a remote possibility) plus the batter (a guy) who is going to be kicking away.  It's better to get a guy out than a girl because she's less of a threat on the base paths.

[Brian Fein]

It sounds like kickball would be better if that "no one is allowed in the short infield until after it gets kicked" rule is abolished.  That rule basically says "bunt all the time..."

[Dave Gray]

It sounds like kickball would be better if that "no one is allowed in the short infield until after it gets kicked" rule is abolished.  That rule basically says "bunt all the time..."

I disagree.  It gives (almost) everyone a chance to play and get on base.  It everyone is kicking away all the time, it'd be really hard to score any runs.

You should play, Brian.  I bet you'd like it.

[Brian Fein]

^^ I've considered it, I'd like to, but it appears to require a big time expenditure that I can't afford to invest right now.  Plus I wouldn't want to just jump in and join a team by myself in a random league full of random people. 

I do keep it in mind, though.  I still get WAKA emails.

[Sunstroke]

Where do you stand?

I can't stand right now...I'm too busy rolling on the ground, laughing about two pages of kickball strategy discussion.

[masterfins]

^^^OMG, I was thinking the same thing.  I was going to ask who was up after the girl, but wanted to read through to make sure no one else asked the question...lost interest somewhere along the way.  35 years since I last played kickball.

[kickballjedi]

I have played first base on a championship kickball team and I've run into this situation several times over the years. So, to clarify there are runners at 2nd and 3rd with 1 out (after 3rd kicker sacrifice bunted to first base):

You say the next kicker is a girl who bunts toward first base, trying to sacrifice the run in? Be ready for it, you said she did it twice. Have your catcher play on the right side of the kicker or have your pitcher pitch to her inside, making the bunt much more difficult. Try to "bounce" the pitch so she has trouble keeping it on the ground.

But if she still manages to lay down the perfect first base foul line bunt, have your pitcher charge the ball and fake a throw to first base. The guy at third base will probably be aggressive, it might pull him off. If it's a perfect bunt and the 3rd base runner doesn't bite on the fake, then eat it.

But now the offense has the upper hand, with bases loaded and 1 out, they can kick away with no worries. They will probably score at least one run anyway. But you have held one run from scoring and with some luck, and some bad kicking on their part, you have the opportunity to make it out of the inning with no runs scored.

[BigDaddyFin]

Where the hell is the catcher in all of this?

[Pappy13]

I have played first base on a championship kickball team and I've run into this situation several times over the years. So, to clarify there are runners at 2nd and 3rd with 1 out (after 3rd kicker sacrifice bunted to first base):

No, I don't think that's the scenario he's talking about, but I think the answer is still pretty much the same. He's talking about runners at first and second, nobody out with a girl coming to the plate. She bunts to first. What do you do? Do you try to get her out by throwing the ball at her or do you just eat the ball and load the bases for the guy coming to the plate? I still think the answer is the same as your scenario, you eat the ball and load the bases. The only time you would want to get the out in my opinion is if you can do it while still holding onto the ball. If you can do that, then you get the out and still prevent a run from scoring, that would be ideal. If you have to throw the ball to get the out, it's not worth it as a run is probably gonna score. Heck they could score 2 runs depending on where the ball goes after throwing it. Too risky.