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Author Topic: Question for Maine : Pitcher's Run Support  (Read 2005 times)
EDGECRUSHER
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« on: February 20, 2011, 03:27:33 am »

I know you have a nice background in pitching and I wanted to get your thoughts on something.

I am of the belief that a pitcher isn't really too responsible for his W-L record. Not to say that if his ERA is over 6, then he shouldn't be accountable for his 3-13 record, but that if his ERA is 3.25 it shouldn't be his fault that his record is 5-12.

However, sometimes I see pitchers repeat these patterns for many years, if not their whole careers. David Wells always enjoyed high run support and had a record to back it up. On the other hand, Matt Cain gets terrible run support and usually has a bad record, despite very good results.

So, I have to think the pitcher is responsible, at least somewhat, for his lack or gain of run support. Especially, if it follows them throughout their career.

Do you think there is any truth to it?
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Brian Fein
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WHAAAAA???

chunkyb
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 09:49:59 am »

This is an interesting topic.  I can't see any link between pitching and hitting, but if it is many seasons across multiple teams, its not a coincidence.
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MaineDolFan
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MaineDolFan
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 04:35:16 pm »

My college pitching coach always told us the same thing, over and over:

Pitch the same way whether you're up by ten or down by ten. 

I'll say the same thing here that I told him at that time:  That's easier said than done.  Depending on run support, or lack thereof, a pitcher's entire game plan goes out the window.  It is simply human nature to pitch differently when you have a team on the ropes.  My father actually pointed something out to me that jumped off the page like a screaming monkey on fire: My K/9 during my senior year was vastly different in games where the run differential was 2 or 3 versus 5+.  We only lost twice my senior year.  We had a handful of 2 run wins and a handful of 5+.  My K/9 became very unappealing in the 5+.  I didn't attack, I nibbled.  I think you'll find a lot of pitchers today do the same.  How many games do you see in MLB that start 7-0 in the 3rd inning and wind up being an 11-9 slug fest?  If you start a game 7-0 the team should win 99.999% of the time.  Doesn't always work that way out of simple human nature from one position:  The pitcher.

Win / loss is tough in today's baseball, especially with the advent of specialized bullpens and the limitation of innings pitched.  My average start during my senior year in college was 8 and a third.  The average start of today's major league pitcher is just over six innings.  How many games are decided in the 7th, 8th and 9th innings?  A lot.  Which is why I think OPS against and WHIP are 1-2 in importance with ERA a distance third. 

You mentioned two pitchers in particular, those two are very good examples of something else that is important:  Ballparks.  David Wells pitched the majority of his career in the AL East.  Matt Cain in the NL West.  Toronto, Boston, Baltimore, Tampa, New York...all hitters ball parks.  San Diego, L.A., San Fran...all pitchers ballparks.  I look at Cain's WHIP last year of 1.08, ERA of 3.14 and 11 losses and automatically think this:  That guy left a ton of games that were tied.  Plain and simple.  BUT, all that said, he's pitching in PITCHER ballparks.  He is SUPPOSED to have that type of ERA / OPS, etc. 

So what does that say about his 11 losses?  You look at a guy like Cliff Lee and he has similar numbers and, yet, more wins.  Cain?  He's never won more than 14 in a season and, yet, sports a lifetime 3.45 ERA.  All of that in bull parks where no one scores a lot of runs.  Yet, to your example a guy like Wells averaged something like 5.07 runs support per six innings at one time in his career.  So the question is this:  Is that ballpark driven or something else?

So much goes into the offensive output of a game, including the output of the pitcher.  So yes, in my opinion, a pitcher is somewhat responsible for the offensive output.  How many "three and outs" does he manufacture?  How often is the offense put into a position of playing from behind?  What types of balls is the pitcher putting into play?  So many intangibles.

As much as things creep into a pitcher's mental makeup during games, batters "grip" under certain conditions as well.  You see your guy go out in the 1st inning and give up four base hits, two walks and a run and you are more likely to swing at bad pitches trying to manufacture something. 

So, long winded, my answer:  YES, to a point.  Do my nonsensical rambles make any sense at all?

Smiley
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 04:37:00 pm by MaineDolFan » Logged

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Pappy13
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 04:52:43 pm »

Made perfect sense to me.  I played infield up through my Freshman year in college when I gave up baseball to have a family.

There's nothing worse than a pitcher who constantly falls behind in the count or constantly goes to 3-2 counts.  Puts the field position players to sleep.  Same thing if before the pitcher throws he has to step off the mound, use the resin bag, stare at the stars, kick at the rubber 2 or 3 times, look in to get the sign, shake off a sign or 2, look over at first 3 or 4 times, get into his stretch and look over again a couple times and then....throw to 1st.  You just wanted to shoot the guy and all you're thinking about IS "JUST THROW THE DAMN BALL"!!!

That mentality can creep into your offensive thinking too and you start to press and you end up not getting good at bats.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 04:56:16 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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masterfins
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 06:24:37 pm »

^^^Pappy touches on a good point at the end, if the pitcher gives up three runs in the 1st or 2nd inning (and no more runs after that) - two possible things can happen 1) It gives the opposing pitcher a little latitude to try and stretch the strike zone and 2) It can make his own batters feel they need to do a little extra to get the team back in the game, and swing at some bad pitches.  So...like all statistics they can be misleading.

I do recall a Yankees season not that long ago were Mike Mussina was probably the best pitcher on staff, but was third in wins/losses, due to taking losses in one-two-or three run games, while Pettite and others who had better records had run support of five or greater.
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EDGECRUSHER
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 10:44:22 pm »

Mike Mussina had a history of low run support, IIRC. Despite his potential Hall of Fame career, I HATED him. He was a guy who would have a pitcher's duel and be down 1-0, and then the Yanks would tie it 1-1 in the 6th. Within MINUTES he would give the lead back and lose the game 2-1. Now, his final line would be something like 7 IP, 2 ER, 9 K and 4 H which is excellent, but it was infuriating to watch. He even stated in an interview one time he is a better pitcher tied or down a run than up by 4 as it is easier to bear down.

Always found that odd seeing as how he has a very high IQ and was regarded as one of the smartest players in MLB.
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