Who do you blame for the current lockout?

[MikeO]

I hope you're right, but people have said the sides are close to an agreement before and nothing came of it. I do think that both sides are starting to realize that the courts don't want any part of this disagreement and would really like to see the players and owners just work it out for themselves. This is not really something that should be decided in the courts. The owners and employees are both making plenty of money, they just can't decide on who gets what. That's not really what the courts were designed to determine, that should be determined by the people involved.

Read today that things were going great, and Tuesday both sides called the lawyers into these meetings and all hell broke loose. Smith had to calm down the NFLPA lawyers and tell them to chill. Goodell the same with his lawyers.  Seems like some level heads are runing things now so this should be over with in a matter of weeks.

[fyo]

Read today that things were going great, and Tuesday both sides called the lawyers into these meetings

When I saw the multitude of optimistic pieces about "getting close" and that the lawyers were being brought back in... well, both sides seem to be severely misunderstanding the role of lawyers in negotiations: None.

The lawyers should only be there to make sure the text reflects what the negotiators have agreed upon. Seriously, why did the lawyers have to be "removed from direct negotiations" (per ESPN)? They should never be negotiating. This isn't a matter of law (mostly). Their expertise is "simply" needed to make sure the text of the agreement reflects what the sides have negotiated. They are, in effect, glorified scribes.

That may be a slight exaggeration, but I really cannot fathom why lawyers would ever be doing the actual negotiating. That's just asking for trouble.

[MikeO]

Well Smith is a lawyer so he gives the NFLPA a slight leg up going up agaisnt Goodell. I can see why the Owners might want lawyers involved

[Guru-In-Vegas]

LOL. I wanted to vote for Sean Hannity and Limbaugh.  I went with players and owners though.  I side with the players but it's not logical to say it's solely because of the owners there is a lockout.

[MikeO]

but it's not logical to say it's solely because of the owners there is a lockout.

Well the players didn't lock themselves out 

[Phishfan]

Well Smith is a lawyer so he gives the NFLPA a slight leg up going up agaisnt Goodell. I can see why the Owners might want lawyers involved

Why is that a leg up?

[fyo]

Well Smith is a lawyer so he gives the NFLPA a slight leg up going up agaisnt Goodell. I can see why the Owners might want lawyers involved

Lawyers are needed to make sure the agreements are actually legal, enforceable, and actually state what was agreed upon. Having lawyers a part of the direct negotiations is in no way an advantage. Maybe I'm just jaded from actually having tried to negotiate contracts with the legal departments of a few companies, but that was hell and the only way to actually get something done was to go above their heads, get an agreement "in principle", then let the lawyers write things up (while only managing to mangle parts of the agreement in the process).

I'm not saying being a lawyer is a disadvantage. It's just that there's very little "law" in negotiations. The lawyers mainly become part of the equation to make sure one party doesn't screw the other party over (and that's great, of course).

[masterfins]

^^^Agreed, it's really about the dollars, being a lawyer is really no advantage (unless he has some special negotiating skill).  Better to have a couple accountants in there calcualting the tax consequences in combination with the various offers.

[masterfins]

Well the players didn't lock themselves out 

No, they just rejected various offers put forth by the owners.  The owners made concessions, and were willing to open their books to a certain degree; the players wanted every detailed item on operations  - which is NEVER done in a contract negotiation.  Would Peyton Manning provide a detailed accounting of how he spent every penny he made??

[MikeO]

No, they just rejected various offers put forth by the owners.  The owners made concessions, and were willing to open their books to a certain degree; the players wanted every detailed item on operations  - which is NEVER done in a contract negotiation.  Would Peyton Manning provide a detailed accounting of how he spent every penny he made??

what world are you living in and what newspapers are you reading? Seriously. NONE OF THAT HAPPENED!

Owners never willing to open their books.
Owners made NO concessions, they wanted MORE...(hence the lockout)
The players wanted NOTHING they were happy with status quo!

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Well the players didn't lock themselves out 

Riiiiiiiiight...

There's a fight / argument from both sides.  No agreement as of yet.  Hence, the lockout. 

 

[Spider-Dan]

Would Peyton Manning provide a detailed accounting of how he spent every penny he made??

He would if:

- he had a contract with some other entity that required that he give them x% of Peyton Manning income, and
- he was telling said entity that this percentage needs to be adjusted (in his favor) because he's not making enough to pay the bills now (<--- this part is important)

[bsmooth]

So now that the news is out and confirmed that the players had ammased a secret trust fund that would pay them at least 200k ( which works out to over 360 million) it begs a couple questions.
1. Where did the money come from and how long did it take to amass?
2. If the players went out of their way to gather a trust fund for a lockout, why wsa it so bad for the owners to do the same via a tv contract?

Oh yeah and it is the 15th I guess Mike O's prediction of being done by the 4th is null

[fyo]

I wasn't a trust fund. It was an insurance policy. No big mystery (although it was kept secret... even from players).

Oh, and the reason the owners couldn't do the same with the TV contracts was that they were legally obliged to get the best deal possible for both themselves AND the players, since they were negotiating on behalf of the players (and themselves, of course).

The players and owners can both do whatever the hell they want with their own money -- even create a "secret fund", although that's not what the NFLPA did. They took out an insurance policy, just like every single player could have (and maybe should have) done.

[Spider-Dan]

DeMaurice Smith is a freaking genius.  He got approval from the executive committee to get this insurance, kept this card extremely close to the vest (telling only a handful of players outside of the executive committee), and then, with games on the verge of being cancelled, dropped an atomic bomb on the owners.  (fyo already nailed the difference between this and the TV contracts: the owners are contractually obligated to get the best possible deal from the networks, and that doesn't include giving a discount so that the players can get screwed.)

The main focus of the owners' strategy was, "We'll get paid by the TV contracts, you won't, and your players are too bad at managing money to be able to survive."  Now, with the TV money under legal dispute, and the wall suddenly being moved a lot further away from the backs of the players, the owners knew the jig was up.

The best part about the timing of this reveal is that some players will have already been taking some hard looks at their bank accounts.  If the insurance was on the table to begin with, those players would have spent the money before it arrived.  Now, it'll be a welcome cash infusion at the point when they KNOW their game checks are not arriving.

Well played, Mr. Smith.  Well played.  I can only hope that the NBA players' association leadership is as crafty, though I am skeptical that will be the case.