Lebron's Legacy

[Spider-Dan]

Please. Jordan never lost a Finals he appeared in, Lebron has lost two.

So Jordan gets credit for losing before he got to the Finals?

Also the Eastern Conference was far more loaded and tougher than it is so far during Lebron's career. The Knicks, Celtics, Pacers, and Pistons were all capable of winning the title every year.

Jordan's Bulls never beat Bird's Celtics in the playoffs, period.  They played two series and the Bulls were swept both times.
When the Pistons were good, Jordan beat them exactly once.  He beat them in the '91 conference finals and after that, they weren't even good enough to get to the conference finals any more.

And if your goal is to downplay LeBron's competition, Duncan's Spurs are light-years better than the Knicks and Pacers, and Dirk's Mavs are at least comparable (neither the Knicks nor the Pacers did anything equal to sweeping the heavily-favored defending champs).

Lebron has been in the league for 7 years, Jordan already had a title by this same time.

26 is 26 is 26.  LeBron was in the league at 19 years old while Jordan was playing in college, and you're going to hold that against him?

This is absurd.  If LeBron had a) went to college instead of the NBA or b) lost in the conference finals twice more, your argument falls apart.  It's ridiculous to criticize a guy for doing better but not all the way better.  LeBron taking a garbage team to the '07 Finals is more than Jordan did with his early garbage teams.  Jordan does not get extra credit for losing to the Pistons or Celtics early.

If anything, the thing I would criticize LeBron for the most is the conference finals loss to Orlando two seasons ago.  But by your logic, LeBron would deserve more criticism for losing to LA than he would for losing to Orlando.

[mboss]

It's not the fact he "left" (which, he was a Free Agent, which means he can "leave" if he wants to, which he did). That's the easy, boilerplate, explanation.

What people are upset about is the "The Decision" and then the "Pep Rally". Also, Chicago Bulls fans and New York Knicks fans and especially Cleveland loser fans are the three major markets that are upset and now "hate" the Miami Heat because they all got snubbed b/c they thought they were the ones who were going to win the LeBron James sweepstakes last off-season.

No, I am a Bulls fan and I never harbored any delusion that LeBron was coming to Chicago. All my friends that are Bulls fans felt the same way...it wasn't that he didn't come to the Bulls, it was the way everything came together. LeBron and "The Decision" (which I blame on ESPN as much as LeBron and his PR nightmare crew) seemed like a forgone conclusion when Bosh signed with Miami a day or two before. They tried to play it off like they didn't have their minds made up all along, which they did....they were always planning to play together. All these franchises did a lot of maneuvering for this free agent class on the basis that it wasn't a stacked deck...which it clearly was towards Miami. He basically held Cleveland hostage and slit their throats on national TV. And Chicago fans takes great pleasure in Miami losing because Chicago lost to them....not because LeBron didn't come there.

Now, with all of that being said, Michael Jordan will ALWAYS be #1, no matter what LeBron does (even if he wins the next 7 titles in a row and passes him in all-time scoring). It's just no question - Jordan is cut from a much different cloth than James - I knew that after he lost to the San Antonio Spurs in the finals 4 seasons ago.

There will never be another Michael Jordan - but Kobe Bryant is as close as you can get today to that.

Completely agree, I wish people would stop with the comparison...they are not doing LBJ any favors by being compared to MJ.

[jtex316]

I don't even think LBJ can be compared to Magic Johnson, to be honest. Magic Johnson had some unbelievable clutch moments (even as a youngster scoring 42 in game 6 in 1981 to win it for the Lakers, and the most famous hook shot ever in 1987).

LBJ is his own player who isn't really comparable to anyone in NBA modern history. We've never seen a 6'8", 260 lb NFL linebacker-sized guy play small forward / shooting guard / point guard (A "Point-shooting-forward", if you will).

[mboss]

Jordan's Bulls never beat Bird's Celtics in the playoffs, period.  They played two series and the Bulls were swept both times.
When the Pistons were good, Jordan beat them exactly once.  He beat them in the '91 conference finals and after that, they weren't even good enough to get to the conference finals any more.

Take a look at the rosters...the Celtics were a Juggernaut who had gone to the finals 4 straight years. Jordan had Charles Oakley as the 2nd best player on his team, who is basically a better Udonis Haslem. No one, not even Jordan could single handedly beat the Celtics at that time.

Same for the Pistons, they had gone to the finals 3 straight years, with the Bulls slowly growing and improving each year, until the Bulls finally took them out with a sweep in 91. The Pistons, even in their good years had to create the Jordan Rules specifically to deal with MJ.

My point is that Jordan never shrunk from a challenge and the moment. He thrived in the moment and took his game up a notch. LeBron had another top 5 player next to him and a top 10 big man and still shrunk when it mattered most.

[Spider-Dan]

And my point is that at the same age, Jordan had yet to do as much as LeBron has already (unless you are using the bizarre metric of losing in the Finals as somehow being worse than losing before the Finals).

[StL FinFan]

With as many years of NBA experience, Jordan did far more than James.  You can't use age as a measuring stick when one went to college and one skipped over it.

[jtex316]

I kinda see what Spider-Dan is saying here.

There is some difference between the # of years as a pro in relation to the age of that pro. Lebron James is only 26 years old - and yes Wade was like 24 when he won the MVP, but it's quite possible that James needed to lose yesterday to develop into a true closer and a true clutch player (we saw flashes in the Chicago series and in the Boston series, so the skill level and talent is definitely there).

Right now, LeBron's legacy is that he's a choker and can't "win the big one". They said the same thing about John Elway in the NFL (and, about Dirk). Is anyone calling Dirk a choker today? An NBA title has a nice way of pushing aside choke-jobs that occurred earlier in a career (and Dirk had some massively large ones).

What will LeBron's legacy be in 2016? 2020? It could be of an all-time great player with a few rings and Finals MVP's to his name, but we don't know that yet.

If the NBA labor situation gets resolved and we can play ball in 2011-2012, I don't think there is anyone that doesn't think LeBron and the Heat will be right back in the conference finals / NBA finals next years. Their best years are still yet to come.

[Spider-Dan]

With as many years of NBA experience, Jordan did far more than James.  You can't use age as a measuring stick when one went to college and one skipped over it.

That would only be true if you are claiming that Jordan gained nothing from his time in college.

And last I checked, the NBA does not have a cap on the number of seasons you can play; you play until you get too old to keep up.  Given that, the only real factor is age/health, which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not LeBron spent his late teens/early 20s playing for a college or playing pro.  Given that Lebron entered the league 3 years younger than Jordan did, and that Jordan took five years off during his career, it's silly to simply say that year x for Jordan should be the same as year x for LeBron.

[StL FinFan]

That would only be true if you are claiming that Jordan gained nothing from his time in college.

And last I checked, the NBA does not have a cap on the number of seasons you can play; you play until you get too old to keep up.  Given that, the only real factor is age/health, which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not LeBron spend his late teens/early 20s playing for a college or playing pro.

I'm not saying Jordan gained nothing, but college ball is vastly different from pro ball.  James may continue to develop in to the guy who pulls it out in the clutch, he may not.  We don't know.  Right now, today, his image is of a self centered choker.  He is probably the most hated player in the NBA.  ESPN Sports Nation had a poll on who would you rather see win a ring, James or Nowitzki (is that spelled right?).  Only in Florida did the majority vote for James.  I don't remember the percentages overall.  I looked but could not find the poll on there anymore.

[Spider-Dan]

If public hate translated into basketball results, Kobe Bryant wouldn't have 5 rings.

[StL FinFan]

I never said it did and it has nothing to do with the public perception of James.

[Spider-Dan]

Two-thirds of your post was discussing LeBron's image.

[bsmooth]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/miami-heat-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh-blow-up-the-big-three-061311

Jus for laughs. I do not fully agree with what he says, but it is amusing

[StL FinFan]

Two-thirds of your post was discussing LeBron's image.

Yes, and you replied about Kobe and rings.  I never said that the HEAT lost because a lot of people hate James. The title of the thread is "LeBron's Legacy", so I was speaking to how the general public feels about him right now.

[bsmooth]

That would only be true if you are claiming that Jordan gained nothing from his time in college.

And last I checked, the NBA does not have a cap on the number of seasons you can play; you play until you get too old to keep up.  Given that, the only real factor is age/health, which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not LeBron spent his late teens/early 20s playing for a college or playing pro.  Given that Lebron entered the league 3 years younger than Jordan did, and that Jordan took five years off during his career, it's silly to simply say that year x for Jordan should be the same as year x for LeBron.

Lebron came into the league at 19 going on 20. Jordan was 20 going on 21. Not a huge difference age wise there. Jordan played college with a loaded team and went to a crappy team that he carried into the playoffs in his rookie season in an Eastern conference that was much tougher than the conference Lebron has faced.
Jordan had to compete in the MVP race against Magic, Bird, Miller, etc in their primes. Lebron had to worry about Kobe.
To say the league that Jordan entered and conquered at a young age is similiar to this current league is crazy. How do you think Lebron would have faired in the league prior to the hand checking rule( aka the anti Knicks rule)?
Both Jordan and Lebron have earned their reputations in the early part of their careers. Now due to the hole he has dug as being weak and a choke artist, Lebrn has even a tougher road to hoe to become the heir to Jordan.