Lebron's Legacy

[MikeO]

Lebron came into the league at 19 going on 20. Jordan was 20 going on 21. Not a huge difference age wise there. Jordan played college with a loaded team and went to a crappy team that he carried into the playoffs in his rookie season in an Eastern conference that was much tougher than the conference Lebron has faced.
Jordan had to compete in the MVP race against Magic, Bird, Miller, etc in their primes. Lebron had to worry about Kobe.
To say the league that Jordan entered and conquered at a young age is similiar to this current league is crazy. How do you think Lebron would have faired in the league prior to the hand checking rule( aka the anti Knicks rule)?
Both Jordan and Lebron have earned their reputations in the early part of their careers. Now due to the hole he has dug as being weak and a choke artist, Lebrn has even a tougher road to hoe to become the heir to Jordan.

Totally agree. Bottom line is at this point, even if Lebron wins one championship it will mean little. Because one, of all the time he has choked before. And two, because he didn't do it being the best player on his team.

If the Heat would have won this series over Dallas, ok, Lebron could have made the case and argument he was "the man" and the reason they won. Right, wrong...you could make that case.  Now though with Dallas winning....Wade already won a ring without him, and after this series it comes off as Lebron holding Wade back now. Lebron's legacy is so badly beaten at this point winning 1 championship won't fix it.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Right now Lebron should not be compared to Micheal Jorden or Don Shula or Bill Belichick.

He should be compared to Rex Ryan.  Someone who runs his month and makes a big show but who hasn't actually won shit. 

 

[MikeO]

Right now Lebron should not be compared to Micheal Jorden or Don Shula or Bill Belichick.

He should be compared to Rex Ryan.  Someone who runs his month and makes a big show but who hasn't actually won shit. 

 

The Miami Heat are very much like the NY Jets. Lot of talk about how great they are before any games are actually played. When it comes time for big games they come up short. Then afterwards they continue to talk like they accomplished something great and everyone who doesn't see things their way are idiots.

The Miami Heat are the NY Jets of the NBA!

[Spider-Dan]

Lebron came into the league at 19 going on 20. Jordan was 20 going on 21. Not a huge difference age wise there.

Not even close.

LeBron was born on 12/30/84 and played his first NBA game on 10/29/03, making him 18yrs/10mos old.
Jordan was born on 2/17/63 and played his first NBA game on 10/26/84, making him 21yrs/8mos old.

Jordan played college with a loaded team and went to a crappy team that he carried into the playoffs in his rookie season in an Eastern conference that was much tougher than the conference Lebron has faced.

Surely you jest.

CHI's record in Jordan's first three years: 38-44, 30-52, 40-42 (he made the playoffs all three years)
CLE's record in LeBron's first three years:  35-47, 42-40, 50-32 (he made the playoffs only in the third year)

I daresay that an Eastern Conference where a 30-52 team makes the playoffs is slightly worse than one in which a 42-40 team does not.

Jordan had to compete in the MVP race against Magic, Bird, Miller, etc in their primes. Lebron had to worry about Kobe.

Jordan had to compete against Magic and Bird for MVP.  From 84-90, Jordan won 1 MVP, Bird won 2, Magic won 3.  Reggie freaking Miller is not worth discussing; that's like saying LeBron had to compete against Ray Allen.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that LeBron had to compete against Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, and Dirk Nowitzki (you know, people who actually won the MVP).  If we are going to include people who didn't win, I'm happy to put Wade and Chris Paul in the mix.

To say the league that Jordan entered and conquered at a young age is similiar to this current league is crazy. How do you think Lebron would have faired in the league prior to the hand checking rule( aka the anti Knicks rule)?

How do you think Jordan would have fared in the Bill Russell era?

Let's not get crazy with the era excuses.

[mboss]

Not even close.

LeBron was born on 12/30/84 and played his first NBA game on 10/29/03, making him 18yrs/10mos old.
Jordan was born on 2/17/63 and played his first NBA game on 10/26/84, making him 21yrs/8mos old.
Surely you jest.

CHI's record in Jordan's first three years: 38-44, 30-52, 40-42 (he made the playoffs all three years)
CLE's record in LeBron's first three years:  35-47, 42-40, 50-32 (he made the playoffs only in the third year)

I daresay that an Eastern Conference where a 30-52 team makes the playoffs is slightly worse than one in which a 42-40 team does not.
Jordan had to compete against Magic and Bird for MVP.  From 84-90, Jordan won 1 MVP, Bird won 2, Magic won 3.  Reggie freaking Miller is not worth discussing; that's like saying LeBron had to compete against Ray Allen.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that LeBron had to compete against Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, and Dirk Nowitzki (you know, people who actually won the MVP).  If we are going to include people who didn't win, I'm happy to put Wade and Chris Paul in the mix.
How do you think Jordan would have fared in the Bill Russell era?

Let's not get crazy with the era excuses.

Are you saying you think LeBron is better than Jordan? Seems like your defense of LBJ, you are.

Like I said, and tex said LeBron should not have ever been mentioned in the same breath as Jordan....it is not doing him any favors being compared to the greatest of all time when he hasn't accomplished anything yet.

As I have said before, LeBron's legacy has not been cemented yet because he's still young. But he will always be questioned because of his late game struggles. And if he does win with Miami, and is carried by Wade, people will say it will be tainted.

[mecadonzilla]

I've delighted in hearing every single member of local and national radio and TV shows call Lebron out for witnessing his Quitness in action (or should it be "inaction?") this series.  His reputation is shot around the country today.  It will be an uphill battle to repair what was lost in front of more fans to watch an NBA title game in almost a decade.  I think it is likely people won't remember how great Dirk was in this series in the years to come as most fans will only remember how bad Lebron was when it counted.

Lebron could win a shit ton of championships as a tag-a-long, but his "legacy" will be tainted unless he goes out and wins a few playoff MVPs after his epic meltdown.

Any comparisons to Jordan are now silly and irrelevant.  Jordan NEVER quit on his team like Lebron did.

[Thundergod]

...and it continues. Jeeeeebus.

[Spider-Dan]

Are you saying you think LeBron is better than Jordan? Seems like your defense of LBJ, you are.

No, what I'm saying is that Jordan himself was not OMFG MICHAEL JORDAN at 26, so the talk of LeBron being a choker, a quitter, a failure... it's all premature.  At the age of 26, LeBron has done SIGNIFICANTLY more in the NBA than Jordan had at 26.  And it's not really even close.

[Thundergod]

^^^



Unfortunately, it all falls on deaf ears.

[mecadonzilla]

...and it continues. Jeeeeebus.

The truth hurts but it must be said.  Speaking of deaf ears, though...

[EDGECRUSHER]

Saw some stuff on ESPN today that blew my mind. Lebron only scored 18 points in all of the Finals 4th quarters. As if that wasn't insane enough, his Finals PPG average was the biggest dropoff from his regular season PPG average in NBA history amongst players who average more than 25 PPG aka "Superstars".

It's amazing to admit this, but I think the Heat have a better shot at the title next year if they dump Lebron and pick up a solid role player like Jason Terry.

[bsmooth]

No, what I'm saying is that Jordan himself was not OMFG MICHAEL JORDAN at 26, so the talk of LeBron being a choker, a quitter, a failure... it's all premature.  At the age of 26, LeBron has done SIGNIFICANTLY more in the NBA than Jordan had at 26.  And it's not really even close.

No because you have conviently picked the one fact to make your whole arguement i.e. age, as if he is some immature high school kid incapable of making rational decisions. You completely ignore the fact that Lebron has been in the league for seven years now. In this timeframe he has established a legacy of overhyped MVP player who shines during the regular season to garner the MVP, but quits on his team when it counts the most, and cannot be counted on to take the big shot or even want the big shot everytime.
By that many years in the league Jordan was well on his way to unparralled greatness. You want to talk about Lebron's career and his future, yet you push away all comparisons to Jordan's career at the same point( 7 years in) and start crying about age as if being in his 20's equals not mature.
Hell Kobe showed bigger balls before age 26 when given the chance to shine and prove his worth and not just be a complimentary "star"
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If LeBron wants to accept all the comparisions to Jordan at this point in his career, he actually has to be able to handle the comparison of his career at this point( 7 years) to Jordan's at the same point, and by that score he fails.
You are correct in that his career may improve greatly over the next few years, but remember Jordan's career also skyrocketed after the 7 year mark too ( Three peat and Finals MVP) so LeBron has a canyon to crawl out of.

[MikeO]

No, what I'm saying is that Jordan himself was not OMFG MICHAEL JORDAN at 26, so the talk of LeBron being a choker, a quitter, a failure... it's all premature.  At the age of 26, LeBron has done SIGNIFICANTLY more in the NBA than Jordan had at 26.  And it's not really even close.

BUT....Jordan's mom didn't bang Delonte West either. DEBATE OVER!

[jtex316]

Look, if LeBron leads his team to a championship (e.g. he shows up in the 4th quarter of the Finals and clearly is the factor), all of the previous choke-jobs get forgotten about. Like I said earlier, no-one today is calling Dirk a choker, but until the end of game 6, that was always a question, due to two historically-large choke-jobs in 2006 and 2007.

Same for LeBron. Instead of "choke-artist", the conversation will turn to "tainted" (e.g. plays with Wade and Bosh) if he wins it all.

One thing I'd like to know - LeBron clearly has massive amounts of basketball talent (no-one is arguing that, right?). He clearly can take over a game in the regular-season (we've seen it the past 7 years). He clearly can step up in round 1, round 2, and the Eastern Conference finals and take over and flat-out dominate (we've seen that not only this season but we've seen flashes of it in Cleveland and who can forget the way he completely took over that Pistons game where he scored like 25 points in a row the year they went to the Finals).

So what I want to know is why is there a mental block upstairs on LeBron for when the going gets really tough? We've seen him check out last season in Cleveland against the Celtics in the playoffs, we've seen him get completely and utterly shut-down against the Spurs in the 2007 Finals, and we've seen him completely tank in the 4th quarters of this NBA finals. It's not like those teams are doing anything overly special to contain LeBron - after all, the Bulls this season were a lock-down defensive unit and LeBron just smoked them when it counted (same with the Boston Celtics as well - both the Celtics and Bulls are much better defensively than the Mavericks).

So, what gives? When the going is somewhat-tough, he shines, but when it's completely tough, he doesn't? Is this a maturity issue, or did he just need to get completely hated by everyone not in South Florida to learn how to overcome this?

That's what I want to know.

[EDGECRUSHER]

Lebron is like A-Rod. Both incredibly talented athletes who have been called the greatest ever, but both are known as terrible chokers. Something snapped inside of A-Rod in 2009 and he had one of the most clutch postseasons in history en route to a title. Something has to snap inside of Lebron as well for him to get over his mental block.

As if those weren't enough comparisons, both have almost never stepped in front of a microphone without saying something stupid.