Is it sexist not to care about women's sports?

[Pappy13]

You are crazy if you do not think size, speed and height give you an advantage in soccer.

Don't twist my words, I said they were not as big of an advantage in soccer as some other sports, say for example Basketball.

All the skill in the world is meaningless if the person on the other team can outrun you to the goal...

Really?  Ever hear of an offsides trap? Works pretty well to negate your speed advantage. It's not fool proof, someone can still outrun you to the ball if they are onsides and the ball is played into space, but they have to stay onsides until the ball is played and then use their speed and the ball played has to be played into a spot that will allow him to run onto it, that takes some skill and understanding of the rules of soccer and how teams try to defend.  Skill does matter, it matters a great deal.

You are committing the same fallacy that all the proponents of women's sports make time and time again, that skill set alone can somehow overcome an across the board lack of speed, strength, height, and size.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said that skill alone could offset an across the board lack of speed strength and height, skill CAN however offset a lack of physical ability to an extent.

[Doc-phin]

Got in on this late but I want to make one point that I didn't see being made earlier in the thread.

Disclaimer - I don't watch women's sports, it is boring as hell!  But...

I try to support the notion of women's sports because of the severe lack of constructive hobbies for women.  I would much rather young girls spend some time playing sports than learning to use up time with shopping and gossip.  Guys have always had so much to do and in the past girls/women have had not much more than dance classes as an option for a past time.

I suppose I have found myself feeling bad for the ladies at times because of how bored they appeared to be.  Certainly there are exceptions and much of it has to do with social class and where you live.  But, nearly every community has something set up for the average Joe or Jane to get a game going on the cheap.

So ladies...  You are nowhere near as good as the guys.  As one of my college friends once said (he was a sports writer for the college paper) "dude, this is barely sports".  But go for it anyway, its good for you.  At the very least it takes away your excuse of not supporting our habit of watching every damn Dolphin's game we are alive for!

[Pappy13]

So ladies...  You are nowhere near as good as the guys.

Who cares? 98% of the guys are nowhere near as good as the guys we watch on TV.  What difference does that make?  I can't go play basketball and compete in the NBA, why should that prevent me from enjoying the NBA?  And why should it prevent me from watching women play in the WNBA? They're a hell of a lot better than I am too, just like the guys in the NBA. Who made up this silly rule I can only enjoy sports when played at their highest level?

[Doc-phin]

Who cares? 98% of the guys are nowhere near as good as the guys we watch on TV.  What difference does that make?  I can't go play basketball and compete in the NBA, why should that prevent me from enjoying the NBA?  And why should it prevent me from watching women play in the WNBA? They're a hell of a lot better than I am too, just like the guys in the NBA. Who made up this silly rule I can only enjoy sports when played at their highest level?

Confused???  Is this in response to my post?  It doesn't seem to match up with what I said.

But what the hell, I will respond-  There is no rule that all sports have to be at the highest level, but I really don't have enough time to watch second rate stuff.  Hell, I barely have the time to watch the top notch stuff.  But lets say I did have the time...  I don't think I would watch unless I had something else to invest me in what I was watching.  If I knew someone playing or was an alumni from the school that was playing, I would have something to get invested in.  Even then I would opt for the men's sports nearly every time. 

Even if I am not currently athletic enough to beat women at these sports, I used to be.  There was a time when I was athletic enough that a team of me could have beat any of the best womens sports teams out there.  I am not talking like a dumbass like you see in pros vs joes type shows.  I really believe that I was realistically good enough.  But I never took it to the next level.  I want to watch the guys that are at the level I had once dreamed to be at.  I want to see what it would have taken to get there and then excel.  I want to see what it looks like when you take those types of guys and pit them against one another.  I DON'T WANT TO WASTE TIME WATCHING PLAYERS THAT AREN'T ANY BETTER THAN I ONCE WAS!

But once again, I support girls sports because I think it is good socially.  Let other girls watch it.  Let their families watch it.  Let people who have never been athletic watch it.  Heck, even let the dudes that like to look at athletic chicks watch it.  AND ALWAYS SUPPORT THE NATIONAL TEAM.  But, I will pass on anything but the best.

[Pappy13]

Even if I am not currently athletic enough to beat women at these sports, I used to be.  There was a time when I was athletic enough that a team of me could have beat any of the best womens sports teams out there.  I am not talking like a dumbass like you see in pros vs joes type shows.  I really believe that I was realistically good enough.

There's a difference between being athletic enough and skilled enough.

I have no doubt that you may have been athletic enough to compete with women at any sport, I very seriously doubt however that you would have been skilled enough to compete with women at any sport at any level.  I don't buy it.  I used to be a pretty good athlete myself (played college baseball). I could probably hang on a softball field with just about any woman, but there's just no way that I could have played soccer at the level that the USWNT is at now. I'm not even sure I could have played at the level that some of my daughter's friends were playing at for Div I schools. Some of those girls were quite fast compared to other girls. Now maybe that's not faster than the fastest boys, but I wasn't as fast as many boys. I think they may have come pretty close to matching me in speed. My soccer skills were just too far below theirs, my better athleticism would not have made up for it and I don't care how good of an athlete you are, I don't believe it makes up for a complete lack of skill in a game. If your skill level is close enough to theirs (women), then yes your athleticism could put you on par or even exceed their ability, but your skill level has to be close enough to begin with and I don't believe it would be. Not at the highest level of women's sports. They have a lot of skill. More than I think most here are giving them credit for.

I don't think Dave is giving himself enough credit on his basketball skills. Sounds like he's a pretty good player even if he is just a white guy. That's enough to make him better than even a more skilled woman player, but only because he's pretty skilled in basketball. I think if you would take him out of his element and put him on the pitch, the women would run rings around him. He couldn't compete. His skill level wouldn't be enough for his superiour athleticism to matter.

[Dave Gray]

I don't think Dave is giving himself enough credit on his basketball skills. Sounds like he's a pretty good player even if he is just a white guy. That's enough to make him better than even a more skilled woman player, but only because he's pretty skilled in basketball. I think if you would take him out of his element and put him on the pitch, the women would run rings around him. He couldn't compete. His skill level wouldn't be enough for his superiour athleticism to matter.

I'm flattered.  Really. Honestly.  Truly.  I'm blushing.

But I'm not a good basketball player.  I'm actually a really good example of this principle, actually.  I'm an pretty good shooter and I have a good head on my shoulders to minimize mistakes.  I understand the game, but when I play pickup games, I'm probably the least physically gifted on the court.  (This is years ago, we're talking about, BTW.)  I make up for it with hustling back all the time on defense and trying to be a good role player.  I lacked skills in dribbling and I don't play "tough".  My friends can attest to all of these, both positive and negative.

That said, when playing against girls, I all of a sudden was able to make up in those areas I lacked by sheer power, size, and speed.  I'm not a fast guy at all, but what was "quickness" in the men's game became "speed" in the women's game.  All of those things are true.  Fau is a big dude - stocky and pretty tall.  In the men's game, he's not tall enough and probably too slow to play a true center against their athleticism.  Against the girls, he's like Shaq.

Like Joe said, I mostly played a "2" in our games.  Hung outside and shot or swung the ball around the perimeter, but against the girls, my game opened up to where I was backing people down and rebounding.  I never do that.

Plus, it was easier to pass against them, because of stuff like height - a sheer measurable.


To be fair, basketball is probably the most obvious example, other than maybe football or MMA or something, where skill can't make up for attributes.  And soccer is on the other end of that (softball, too).  There's no doubt that I'd get schooled in a game of soccer, even against 15 year old girls.  But it only speaks to my complete lack of familiarity with the sport. 

[Pappy13]

But I'm not a good basketball player.  I'm actually a really good example of this principle, actually.  I'm an pretty good shooter and I have a good head on my shoulders to minimize mistakes.  I understand the game, but when I play pickup games, I'm probably the least physically gifted on the court.  (This is years ago, we're talking about, BTW.)  I make up for it with hustling back all the time on defense and trying to be a good role player.  I lacked skills in dribbling and I don't play "tough".  My friends can attest to all of these, both positive and negative.

You just described a lot of the attributes that I would consider "skill" as opposed to "athleticism".

Shooting is a skill, has little to do with athleticism.

Good head on your shoulders, to minimize mistakes - Skill, not athleticism.

Trying to be a good role player - skill, not athleticism.

You weren't playing a WNBA team, you were playing a Div II basketball team. You were probably equally as skilled as the women you were playing against if not better in some of those skills. Of course your superior athleticism made the difference. Now go play against the WNBA.  MUCH higher skill level than that.  Now come back and tell me your superior athleticism would have allowed you to outplay them.  I don't buy it. I just don't.

[Dave Gray]

Of course I wouldn't beat someone in the NBA.

The point is this, as far as men go, I'm on the bottom when it comes to skills.  Most guys I play with kick the crap out of me.  I'm a good shooter, but I'm not great, compared to regular guys on the pick up court.  And we're unorganized and largely untrained, other than playing for fun.

Compare this to an organized team of girls in the top 1% of their gender at basketball.

In short, I'm one of the worst guys on the court.  They're some of the best girls.  I still beat them.  (Or even play competitively against them.)

[Spider-Dan]

So, I have a question:

All of the people who are saying that size, speed, strength are just too much to overcome... surely you must believe that NBA players are the biggest, fastest, strongest people in the world, right?

I'm pretty sure that you could take a team of (male) NBA players, and a team of (male) track-and-field stars who are bigger, faster, and stronger... and the NBA players would wipe the f*cking floor with them in a game of basketball.

Does skill count for nothing in your world?

[Tenshot13]

So, I have a question:

All of the people who are saying that size, speed, strength are just too much to overcome... surely you must believe that NBA players are the biggest, fastest, strongest people in the world, right?

I'm pretty sure that you could take a team of (male) NBA players, and a team of (male) track-and-field stars who are bigger, faster, and stronger... and the NBA players would wipe the f*cking floor with them in a game of basketball.

Does skill count for nothing in your world?

Of course you need some skill, but athletic ability can equal that and even surpass that.  How many players in any sport do you hear are "great athletes?"  That usually means they are game changers but need to hone their skill a little more. 

Take Vick for instance.  He is athletically gifted.  He made the Probowl pre-arrest almost entirely on athleticism.  He was by no means a good QB, we was athletic.  Now, he is a good QB and still has the athleticism and is widely considered one of the best in the league right now.

Skill counts for something.  Athleticism counts for more.  Both and you're a beast.

[Spider-Dan]

So do you think that Chris Paul is the most athletic point guard in the NBA?  That Dwyane Wade is the biggest, strongest, or fastest shooting guard?

Yes, there are physical freaks like LeBron or Dwight Howard, but there are plenty of great players who aren't the best athletes in the league.  And basketball is the most extreme example you can pick... I doubt anyone would say that Joe Montana, Barry Sanders, Greg Maddux, or Derek Jeter were the biggest, strongest, or fastest at their positions.

[Pappy13]

Of course I wouldn't beat someone in the NBA.

WNBA.

Compare this to an organized team of girls in the top 1% of their gender at basketball.

What?  A Div II team? In the US? I don't think so. Maybe of the entire population in the world, but 90% of those girls don't play basketball.  Of the girls that play basketball, you're talking about maybe in the top 50%. Maybe. The average Div II team is not that much better than a pickup team. You telling me that Div II, NAIA, Div I, WNBA and anyone else that plays outside the US at that level makes up the top 1% of girls basketball? I doubt it.  Now WNBA, you're probably talking about top 1% of their gender at basketball. You're vastly over estimating your competition.

I don't think you quite understand what Div II sports is like. Div II and NAIA is for anyone that wants to play who's not good enough for Div I. Div III is like playing a recreational sport. Now before anyone goes crazy, I'm not talking about all of Div II, I'm talking about the average Div II school. The top 15-20 Div II schools in their respective sport are on par with some Div I schools, but that's only the top 15-20 schools and there are hundreds of Div II teams, so unless this particular school you were playing against was within the top 15-20 in the country of Div II, the level of play is not really that great. Same goes  for NAIA, the top teams can compete with some Div I schools, but the vast majority are not much better than finding 5 girls who play basketball on a regular basis and throwing them together (a pick-up game).

And before you tell me that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, my son just graduated from playing soccer on an NAIA team and I had a daughter that played on an NAIA team 3 years ago. They both played against Division II teams at times and were very competitive. None of the schools I'm talking about were top Div II or top NAIA teams, just average teams, so I saw first hand the level of competition. The kids play hard and train hard but you won't see any of them playing in a World Cup. None of them will ever even make it to the professional level.

If you're gonna look at it like that, then you are easily in the top 5% of the men since 90% of the men in the world don't play basketball and of those that do (like me) that haven't played in years and are out of shape, fat, short and never really were that good in the first place you easily smoke us.

[Pappy13]

Take Vick for instance.  He is athletically gifted.  He made the Probowl pre-arrest almost entirely on athleticism.

Whatever.  Vick has probably been playing football since he was old enough to walk. He's had YEARS of training to hone his skills.  Even in a wheelchair he can read the defense better than anyone here at anytime in our lives.  That's skill buddy, got nothing whatsoever to do with athleticism.

Now he's certainly not the best at it, but he's no moron either. His superior athleticism allows him to be a little less skilled than maybe a Peyton Manning, but he's in the same ballpark as him when it comes to skill and that ball park is WAY over the heads of you and me.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

On Pappy's point.

And in sports where skill is more important than athleticism, the women are closer to being even. 

PGA vs. LPGA, yes the best male golfer in the world is better than the best female golfer. But not by much.  Of the top 1000 golfers in the world there probably are 100+ that are female.

NBA vs WNBA.  Probably about 10,000 male basketball players that are better than the best female basketball player.

I shutter to think how many males would be better than the best female nose tackle -- a million, two million, 10 million.

However, the best gymnast in the world are female same with ice dancers.       



 

[masterfins]

I think the only way this topic could become more tedious is if it were to devolve into whether cheerleading is a "sport".