For actual fans only

[Phishfan]

They'll never understand a simple point like that for some reason. No sense in trying to do it again when we've beaten this dead horse.

Oh superior being, I'm afraid we do understand. You are the one missing the point. The lose now to win then is pure conjecture. Your plan could just as easily equate to lose now and continue losing. There is no guarantee in your theory, so I want wins as they can actually come.

[suck for luck]

actual fans

Is that anything like Ndamakong Suh's true fans? LOL

This BS is hilarious. I've been a fan of this team my entire f'ing life. Sat down to watch the Turkey game (I live in OK so I only get to see a few games a year) and it was impossible for me not to root for them. Got totally sucked in to thinking they were gonna pull out the win LOL.

This year I haven't been rooting against them (not that it matters at all) but I'm happy when they lose. Unfortunately they cranked out a few meaningless wins which will make getting better more difficult. I hate the position that this inept, crappy, half-assed  franchise has put me in  and look forward to the day I can cheer on a competent Dolphins team that doesn't look like it makes decisions by having a room full of monkeys throw darts at the wall.

It's a difference of opinion about what would be the best route to excellence. Get over it. If Suck for Luck is old, annoying and obnoxious then I'd say Meaningless Wins for the True Phins is right there with it in everything but the length of time it has existed.

[Spider-Dan]

Totally disagree! A real fan ALWAYS wants their team to win and is dissapointed when they don't and will criticize the plays the coaches whatever.Draft picks don't always pan out in the big leagues,I have seen tons of great college can't miss prospects that only had mediocre NFL careers.

So are you saying that criticizing the team always works out?  That complaining about the need to go from a player-friendly coach (e.g. Wanny) to a disciplinarian (e.g. Saban) is guaranteed to work?  How about insisting that the ownership needs to bring in someone with a proven record (like Parcells), or conversely bemoaning the fact that the team won't take a chance on new and upcoming coaching talent (like Cameron)?  Or maybe you're saying that declaring the team's need to bring in a top-tier WR (e.g. Marshall) or a big-name free agent defender (e.g. Porter, Dansby) cannot fail?

Nothing is guaranteed.  Everything is conjecture.

Criticizing one's own team is part of being a fan......
It's like I can talk bad about a member of my family when they screw up-but YOU had better not!

So then, it would seem that people are capable of recognizing that it's possible to say something which appears to be against the team, but really has the team's best long-term interests at heart.  Funny, that.

It's pretty simple:  if one is going to insist that rooting for the Dolphins to lose at any point, ever is antithetical to the purpose of being a fan, that same person had better not be criticizing the team.  If you want to pretend that there's no difference between a Dolphin fan wanting a MIA loss and a Jet fan wanting a MIA loss, then how can you pretend that there's a difference between a Dolphin fan criticizing MIA and a Jet fan criticizing MIA?

[Cathal]

Oh superior being, I'm afraid we do understand. You are the one missing the point. The lose now to win then is pure conjecture. Your plan could just as easily equate to lose now and continue losing. There is no guarantee in your theory, so I want wins as they can actually come.

True, it is all conjecture, as that seems to be the word people like using recently. It's really simple. Losing now makes more sense than eeking out 4 or 5 wins in a meaningless season. How is that not so easily seen?

Yeah, whoever we end up drafting could be a bust and we suck for another decade. But, I hold more hope in this team getting better by losing now than winning 5 games now.

My problem is like suck for luck's problem. I've been a fan for a while (not as long as a lot of you though) and I'm tired of them just being mediocre. I see it as the QB is the biggest position that needs filling and, unless you get lucky, you need to be picking QB's up early. I think if we had a great QB then this team would easily be competing for the AFC East title every year. That's why I want the team to get a high pick, but every week, when they play, I always end up rooting for them to win but I'm happy when they lose too.

[Phishfan]

unless you get lucky, you need to be picking QB's up early.

And you still need to be lucky then

[shamrock]

So are you saying that criticizing the team always works out?  That complaining about the need to go from a player-friendly coach (e.g. Wanny) to a disciplinarian (e.g. Saban) is guaranteed to work?  How about insisting that the ownership needs to bring in someone with a proven record (like Parcells), or conversely bemoaning the fact that the team won't take a chance on new and upcoming coaching talent (like Cameron)?  Or maybe you're saying that declaring the team's need to bring in a top-tier WR (e.g. Marshall) or a big-name free agent defender (e.g. Porter, Dansby) cannot fail?

Nothing is guaranteed.  Everything is conjecture.
So then, it would seem that people are capable of recognizing that it's possible to say something which appears to be against the team, but really has the team's best long-term interests at heart.  Funny, that.

It's pretty simple:  if one is going to insist that rooting for the Dolphins to lose at any point, ever is antithetical to the purpose of being a fan, that same person had better not be criticizing the team.  If you want to pretend that there's no difference between a Dolphin fan wanting a MIA loss and a Jet fan wanting a MIA loss, then how can you pretend that there's a difference between a Dolphin fan criticizing MIA and a Jet fan criticizing MIA?

Damn,dude it's just football......get out a little more.

[Cathal]

And you still need to be lucky then

Also true.  Is that the only part you disagree with or is my entire view something you disagree with?

[Phishfan]

The only thing I disagree with is wishing to watch losses during Dolphin games. I hope we can find a long term QB solution (I hate the term franchise QB), I hope we can win a Super Bowl (or multiple), I hope for a decade of success. I just don't agree that wishing for a losses is a way to go about it. I want to see my team win games

[Dave Gray]

But do you also realize how rare it is for a team to take a safety on purpose?

Yes, and do you realize how rare it is for a fanbase to hope its team loses games?  I've been a fan on the Dolphins for 25 years and I've never done it, except for about a 3 game stretch.

Also, the comparison is terrible if, as Spider claims, you don't want Miami throwing games on purpose. In your example the team effectively gives up points on purpose. The claim from Spider all along is the "Suck for Luck" movement has had nothing to do with throwing games.

I think there is a difference between throwing games (which hurts the integrity of the league) and HOPING for a loss.  While not exactly the same concept, I agree, taking a safety and losing a meaningless game when you're halfway through the season and 3+ games out of 3rd place in your division are comparable in that they are short term negatives which (assumingly) lead to longer-term positives.

[Brian Fein]

your use of the word "assumingly," albeit in parenthesis, is the first breath of reason I've heard from anyone with that mentality.

The lack of any guarantee is the sticking point for me.

If you told me "if you go 0-16 this year, you will be guaranteed 12 years of sustained success and become a league powerhouse and win multiple championships," I'd be on board. 

However, short of that, nothing is guaranteed, and everything is a crap shoot, regardless of Mel Kiper's draft board.  Thus, see AZ's quote below...

[Spider-Dan]

Brian, you (and others) seem to harp upon the lack of a guarantee, as if there is some sort of alternative option that does produce a guaranteed result.

When you criticize the ineptitude of Sparano and lobby for him to be fired, is there a guarantee that the team will be better off after firing him?
No?
Then why complain at all?

[Phishfan]

Spider, the problem with that position is that the suck for luck crowd is also the same group harping on Sparano (if my memory serves correctly). I don't want to speak for Brian, but I can't recall him being on the fire Sparano lead. I know I haven't been. Now maybe we both agree on the topic or maybe we don't but neither of us are leading that charge so the question really doesn't have a point.

We both disagree with suck for luck. Neither of us have been voicing the fire Sparano position regardless of which side we are on.

[Spider-Dan]

You're missing the bigger point.

Have you ever asked for any Dolphin player or coach to be replaced?
Would the replacement of said person have guaranteed an improvement?
If not, then your continued insistence that Suck For Luck guarantees nothing is not particularly relevant.  Nothing is guaranteed.

[Dave Gray]

Yeah, I don't understand the idea of a guarantee.  There are no guarantees at all in sports.  As previously stated, you're either analyzing things that already happened or making predictions of what is to come.  You have to make decisions that you think have the best probability of success.  Luck may be a total failure.  But if scouts are correct, he gives you the best probability of a QB coming out of college in a decade.  Because I trust those prognosticators, I felt that losing (what I consider to be) meaningless games in an already lost season were beneficial to our best CHANCE at long-term viability as a franchise.

Now, I can't speak for other "Suck for Luck"ers, but I no longer am hoping for the team to lose games.  I feel that our chance of getting Luck has passed (the chance of Indy pouring on 4 wins seems nil), and I'm not as high on these other QBs enough to give up the pleasure of watching (meaningless) Dolphin wins.  However, I do understand that sentiment if other fans think that continued losses will lead to a superstar QB (Griffin III or whoever else) and I certainly don't disparage their fandom for it.

I am not saying that anyone else SHOULD hope for losses.  I get the idea of being proud of wins, regardless.  I just don't subscribe to that.  What I resent is having my fandom of 25 years questioned because of my feelings towards how to best improve the team.

[bsmooth]

My worry about eking out another game or two is that it can give the false sense that things are not as bad as they once seemed, and we will not make the needed changes to reach the highest levels again.