Brandon Marshall

[Spider-Dan]

My argument was that a few more completed plays by Marshall, Moore has a top 10 year.

And without Marshall, he's at the bottom of the league.

Using Brandon Marshall's stats as evidence that Brandon Marshall's desire for a quality QB is unfounded is circular logic.  I suppose if Marshall would have played worse, his cries would then become justified?

[el diablo]

And without Marshall, he's at the bottom of the league.

Using Brandon Marshall's stats as evidence that Brandon Marshall's desire for a quality QB is unfounded is circular logic.  I suppose if Marshall would have played worse, his cries would then become justified?

To use only one side of the equation is unfounded circular logic. You can't have one without the other. If Brandon played worse, he doesn't make the pro bowl. Which would add to the criticism of Moore. QB-WR stats are a reflections of each other. Much like the W-L stat for pitchers. Its not just Moore's fault that Marshall didn't have a better year. Its not just Marshall's fault, that Moore didn't have a better year. The guy made the pro bowl & still felt he's not "accepted" as elite. He didn't criticize himself for dropping balls(top 5) in that category. He criticized someone who wasn't there to defend himself. I'm not saying Moore is elite. I'm saying he has potential to improve. Much like the pro bowl MVP.

[EKnight]

But you actually DID say he was elite with the implication that if his WR played better be would have performed better than any of the three Pro Bowl QB's. If Moore was even remotely as good as you are proposing, he would make the players around him better- not worse. If ANY other receiver in Miami would have performed well, your argument would hold water. They didn't though. Fasano, Bess, and Hartline all had worse numbers under Moore than they did Henne. -EK

[Pappy13]

They didn't though. Fasano, Bess, and Hartline all had worse numbers under Moore than they did Henne. -EK

Depends on how you look at it. Henne had more yardage per attempt, but fewer TD's per attempt and more INT's per attempt. Completion percentage was nearly identical. (see below).

And if you add in Clay and Marshall, things get even further skewed toward Moore. Henne actually did well throwing the ball except when it comes to TD's where Moore far outshined him. Is that just coincidence? Hard to know for sure. Henne did seem to be a bit snake bit in the early games when Marshall for sure dropped a couple of certain TD's that would have helped his numbers tremendously. I don't think Moore was really that much better than Henne overall, but it was the perception because Moore started out TERRIBLE and picked up his play considerably as the season wore on. Was that due to him getting better, just having more reps with the players, weaker defenses, etc? Hard to say.

If I had to make a call, I'd say I'd go with Moore over Henne based on stats alone. And since Henne's contract is up and Moore's isn't, then the choice is obvious which one will be back and which one won't, but I don't think it's fair to say all those guys did worse with Moore.

Henne:

Fasano: 6 of 11 for 108 yards, no TD's and 1 INT.
Bess: 13 of 22 for 192 yards, no TD's and no INTs.
Hartline: 11 of 19 for 188 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs.

Total: 30 of 52 for 57.7% and 9.4 yards,.019 TDs and 0.058 INTs per attempt.

Moore:

Fasano: 24 of 39 for 308 yards, 5 TD's and 1 INT.
Bess: 38 of 62 for 345 yards, 3 TD's and 2 INTs.
Hartline: 23 of 47 for 337 yards 0 TD's and 3 INTs.

Total: 85 of 147 for 57.8% and 6.73 yards,.054 TDs and .041 INTs per attempt.

[Pappy13]

Just for grins, I went back and looked at just incomplete passes from Henne to Marshall and found 9 incompletions to Marshall that were deep inside the opponents territory in the first 3 games. 2 from the New England 2 yard line and 1 from the 7.  2 more from outside the 20 and 2 from inside the 20 against Houston and 1 from the Cleveland 8. It doesn't say whether these passes were dropped or just incomplete, but still that was 9 attempts to get the ball to Marshall in just the first 3 games in scoring position. He targetted Marshall a total of 31 times in those 3 games and had 17 completions, but only 1 TD. 9 of Henne's 14 incompletions to Marshall were within striking distance of the goal line. Does that say that Henne couldn't get the ball into the endzone or does that say that Marshall couldn't come up with the catch when around the goal line? You be the judge.

One last thing, following that incomplete from Henne to Marshal from the New England 7. Henne had a 3rd down 7 yard TD pass to Bess overturned and spotted on the New England 1 yard line. 2 plays later Tom Brady hit Wes Welker for a 99 yard TD. Later in the game with 1 second on the clock Henne forced a pass downfield that was intercepted at the 5. If the replay would have showed Bess broke the plane, that would have given him another TD and potentially would have avoided him having to force the ball with 1 second on the clock causing an INT. Call it karma, bad luck, a tough break or poor QB'ing, Henne just hasn't been able to come up with the big plays when he's needed to. Other than that though, he's not a bad QB.

[el diablo]

But you actually DID say he was elite with the implication that if his WR played better be would have performed better than any of the three Pro Bowl QB's. If Moore was even remotely as good as you are proposing, he would make the players around him better- not worse. If ANY other receiver in Miami would have performed well, your argument would hold water. They didn't though. Fasano, Bess, and Hartline all had worse numbers under Moore than they did Henne. -EK

I never said Moore was elite. I even said he wasn't elite in the last post. I was showing that he wasn't trash. Just like I wouldn't call Marshall trash. I live by the belief that if you want better, be better. If you want more, do more. Brandon could have done more. Just like everybody else.

[el diablo]

Henne had talent. Its just when he would get rattled, either by being hit or overthrowing a wide open receiver,  his game fell way off.

[EKnight]

I never said Moore was elite. I even said he wasn't elite in the last post. I was showing that he wasn't trash. Just like I wouldn't call Marshall trash. I live by the belief that if you want better, be better. If you want more, do more. Brandon could have done more. Just like everybody else.

You never said he was elite in those word, no. But...

If Marshall doesn't drop 4 potential TD's, Moore finishes with a QB rating of 91.4 (60.9 comp. percentage, 20 TD, 9 INT). Just that alone puts him ahead of all three QB's that threw a TD to Marshall in the pro bowl.

Saying he would be better than three pro bowl QB's if he only had 4 more TD's implies that eliteness, does it not? -EK