The Henne era is officially over for the Dolphins

[Pappy13]

Henne passer rating in first four starts:
vs. NE- 93.6
vs. HOU- 56.2
@ CLE- 90.4
@ SD- 53.1

Moore passer rating in first four starts:
@ NYJ- 41.8
vs. DEN- 92.6
@ NYG- 58.5
@ KC- 147.5

That doesn't look like "worse by a wide margin" to me.

Well that SD game is deceptive. Henne only threw 4 passes and his poor rating is largely due to the 1 INT he had where the defense failed to block a blitzer and Henne was demolished while trying to throw downfield and it floated and was picked off. He then got hurt and was replaced by Moore who played most of the game, so I put that game on him for the most part. That makes the numbers look more like this:

Henne passer rating in first 4 games:
vs. NE- 93.6
vs. HOU- 56.2
@ CLE- 90.4
@ SD - Incomplete

Moore passer rating in first 4 games:
@ SD - 67.3
@ NYJ- 41.8
vs. DEN- 92.6
@ NYG- 58.5

It changes things considerably when you look at the full circumstances surrounding the stats.

But this isn't about Moore.

It will be if he's the starter this year.

This is about Henne, who is worse than Moore.  He was anointed as the QB of the future and he folded against three straight non-playoff teams to end his first season as a starter.

Then, when it was theorized that he just didn't have enough weapons, the brass went out and traded for a top-3 WR... and Henne's passer rating improved by two-tenths of a point.  He didn't get a bum rap, or get unfairly dumped on by the fans; he was handed the keys to the franchise and he ran the car into a ditch.

You'll get no argument from me on those points other than he didn't do it on his own, he had LOTS of help driving the thing into the ditch. And when Moore was first handed the keys, it was still FIRMLY in a ditch until Sparano threw up his hands and said he didn't have any answers and took his hands off the steering wheel and his foot off the brake. THEN and ONLY THEN did Moore get it steered back into the road.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[MikeO]

I didn't hear any Henne hate until after the 2009 season

Exactly! 100% you are correct. Anyone who thinks otherwise is making stuff up in their head!

[masterfins]

I was, and am somewhat, a Henne supporter.  He had glimpses of great potential, but for whatever reasons he didn't fulfill them in Miami.  The thing I hated most about him was the 2 minute drill preformance, deer in the headlights all the way.  Now I just worry about him being injury prone.  I think he would make a good backup on a top tier team, he could lead a team for a game or two if the starter had a minor injury.  Good Luck to him, seemed like a nice guy.

[Spider-Dan]

Well that SD game is deceptive. Henne only threw 4 passes and his poor rating is largely due to the 1 INT he had where the defense failed to block a blitzer and Henne was demolished while trying to throw downfield and it floated and was picked off.

Are you also going to subtract out the garbage time stats he piled up against a prevent defense in the NE game, after laying an egg when the game was within reach?

The stats are what they are.

He then got hurt and was replaced by Moore who played most of the game, so I put that game on him for the most part.

So you happily give Henne an "incomplete" for a game in which he is injured, but then immediately issue a full evaluation on Moore for part of a game in which he was thrown in with no first-team prep time?

First four starts vs. first four starts, Moore was better than Henne.  And that is more of an indictment of Henne than it is praise of Moore.

[re: this isn't about Moore]
It will be if he's the starter this year.

Everyone already agrees that Moore is not starter quality, so even if you manage to convince us that Henne is just as good, what does that prove?

You'll get no argument from me on those points other than he didn't do it on his own, he had LOTS of help driving the thing into the ditch. And when Moore was first handed the keys, it was still FIRMLY in a ditch until Sparano threw up his hands and said he didn't have any answers and took his hands off the steering wheel and his foot off the brake. THEN and ONLY THEN did Moore get it steered back into the road.

So if I am to understand you correctly:

- Dan Henning comes in with Pennington at the helm, and is lauded as a genius for his implementation of the innovative Wildcat offense (meanwhile, Pennington finishes 2nd in MVP voting)
- Pennington goes down and is replaced by Henne, and now (with the same weapons on the field) suddenly Henning is a bumbling, outdated idiot who can't adjust to today's game
- Henning is replaced by Brian Daboll, and yet the offense still remains pathetic and ineffective, getting worse by the week
- Henne is replaced by Moore, the offense steadily improves, and Daboll simultaneously "figures out" how to use Reggie Bush

It is not a coincidence that Moore's improved QB play (which is a statistical fact) just happened to occur right before Reggie Bush remembered how to run.  As many of us are aware from the Run Ricky Run days, when your QB is feckless and ineffective, your running game becomes a lot more one-dimensional and easy to stop.

[Pappy13]

Are you also going to subtract out the garbage time stats he piled up against a prevent defense in the NE game, after laying an egg when the game was within reach?

Only if you're going to count the 59 yards rushing and TD he had and the TD to Bess that was overturned on review that would have cut the lead to 7 with 5 minutes left in the game when the game WASN'T out of reach. You're reaching here.

So you happily give Henne an "incomplete" for a game in which he is injured, but then immediately issue a full evaluation on Moore for part of a game in which he was thrown in with no first-team prep time?

Henne played 1/2 of the 1st quarter and completed 3 of 4 passes and had a pick that was not his fault, he was picking himself up off the ground before the ball was picked. Moore played 3 & 1/2 quarters and completed 17 of 26 with a pick to end the game when no one was close to him. I'll give you that he had to come off the bench, but then again that is the job of the backup QB, so I won't cut him too much slack for that. I don't expect him to come in and dazzle, but you can't can't simply ignore what he did either.

It is not a coincidence that Moore's improved QB play (which is a statistical fact) just happened to occur right before Reggie Bush remembered how to run.  As many of us are aware from the Run Ricky Run days, when your QB is feckless and ineffective, your running game becomes a lot more one-dimensional and easy to stop.

Actually you got your facts a little messed up because Bush started to come on well before Moore did, averaging 7.1 yards a carry against the Jets when Moore posted a 41.8. Why is it that Bush had 38 yards on 11 carries in that first game against New England when Henne was playing pretty well? Miami had 25 first downs, 19 by passing. You saying they got all of those in the last 5 minutes? If you are you would be wrong. Henne also played pretty well against Cleveland and Bush got only 13 yards on 10 carries. I've already shown Moore didn't look good in 3 of his first 4 outings and yet Bush started to come on right at that time. He had his first 100 yard game against the Giants where Moore posted a WHOPPING 58.5 passer rating. Perhaps you have it backwards and it's the fact that Bush started to force teams to play the run which allowed Moore more space in the secondary to find open receivers and THAT'S why he started looking better? The very next game was his big game against KC. Maybe KC figured Bush was a bigger threat than Moore and was stacking the box?

We can argue this all day Spider, but I'm not going to. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Henne was good, I've already stated that he was an average QB which was really disappointing considering that we expected more from him. Moore was a little better, but I don't think the expectations were as high for Moore. He came over as a free agent and no one really expected much out of him. So when you look at both of them, you are disappointed with Henne and happy with Moore, but I think that's mainly because of the expectations of each, not because Moore was so much better.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Spider-Dan]

Only if you're going to count the 59 yards rushing and TD he had and the TD to Bess that was overturned on review that would have cut the lead to 7 with 5 minutes left in the game when the game WASN'T out of reach.

Since when do overturned catches count for something?  It's not like the officials messed up the call when they overturned it.  Henne doesn't get credit for the TD to Bess because... it wasn't actually a TD.

Again, when taking into account plays that counted, he couldn't score from the red zone when the game was in reach and piled up 100+ yards after the result was no longer in doubt.

Henne played 1/2 of the 1st quarter and completed 3 of 4 passes and had a pick that was not his fault, he was picking himself up off the ground before the ball was picked.

Um, he chose to throw the ball there instead of throwing it away or taking the sack.  That's on him.  It's not like he threw a perfectly placed ball and it was bobbled and intercepted; he made a bad decision.

But while we are on the topic of which picks count and which ones don't, does Moore get to erase the pick from the @NYJ game where Revis mugged Marshall and returned the ball 100 yards?  I mean, since we are making excuses.

Moore played 3 & 1/2 quarters and completed 17 of 26 with a pick to end the game when no one was close to him. I'll give you that he had to come off the bench, but then again that is the job of the backup QB, so I won't cut him too much slack for that. I don't expect him to come in and dazzle, but you can't can't simply ignore what he did either.

When given the opportunity to practice with the first team and prepare as a starter, Moore outplayed Henne, bottom line.

Apples to apples.

Actually you got your facts a little messed up because Bush started to come on well before Moore did, averaging 7.1 yards a carry against the Jets when Moore posted a 41.8.

7.1 yards a carry?! That's incredible!  Did he have a 200+ yard game?

Oh, wait... he had 10 rushes for 71 yards, with a long of 36.  Hmmm.  It's not often that I've heard someone brag about a 71-yard game from a RB, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

Let's take a more complete look at passer rating and Bush's performance, per game.  I'll list the passer rating, then Bush's yards, then his YPC.

1- 93.6, 38yds, 3.5ypc
2- 56.2, 18yds, 3.0ypc
3- 90.4, 13yds, 1.3ypc
4- 53.1/67.3, 50yds, 3.8ypc
5- 41.8, 71yds, 7.1ypc
6- 92.6, 42yds, 4.2ypc
7- 58.5, 103yds, 6.9ypc
8- 147.5, 92yds, 7.1ypc
9- 75.2, 47yds, 3.4ypc
10- 133.3, 32yds, 2.1ypc
11- 99.5, 61yds, 3.8ypc
12- 85.8, 100yds, 4.5ypc
13- 66.8, 103yds, 7.4ypc
14- 122.3, 203yds, 8.1ypc
15- 98.6, 113yds, 5.1ypc
(Bush was out for the last game)

I see two things in this data:

1) Bush was HORRIBLE when Henne was under center, full stop
2) Bush eclipsed 100 yards in a game 5 times; 4 of them were after Moore had already posted four games with a 90+ passer rating

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Henne was good, I've already stated that he was an average QB which was really disappointing considering that we expected more from him. Moore was a little better, but I don't think the expectations were as high for Moore.

I am completely confused as to what point you have been trying to make for the last 2 pages.  I said from the start that "no one is claiming that Moore is a franchise QB," but you seem to have it in your head that someone believes "Moore is ready to take Miami to new heights."

Nobody is on the Matt Moore bandwagon.  Nobody believes that he is anything but a solid backup.  The ENTIRE POINT of this comparison is that Henne is WORSE than a player whose ceiling is "backup."

[Pappy13]

Let's take a more complete look at passer rating and Bush's performance, per game.  I'll list the passer rating, then Bush's yards, then his YPC.

1- 93.6, 38yds, 3.5ypc
2- 56.2, 18yds, 3.0ypc
3- 90.4, 13yds, 1.3ypc
4- 53.1/67.3, 50yds, 3.8ypc
5- 41.8, 71yds, 7.1ypc
6- 92.6, 42yds, 4.2ypc
7- 58.5, 103yds, 6.9ypc
8- 147.5, 92yds, 7.1ypc
9- 75.2, 47yds, 3.4ypc
10- 133.3, 32yds, 2.1ypc
11- 99.5, 61yds, 3.8ypc
12- 85.8, 100yds, 4.5ypc
13- 66.8, 103yds, 7.4ypc
14- 122.3, 203yds, 8.1ypc
15- 98.6, 113yds, 5.1ypc

The only pattern I see from data above is there is no pattern. He was bad at times when the QB was good (weeks 1,3 & 10). He was good at times when the QB was bad (weeks 5,7 & 13) and yes he was good when the QB was good (weeks 8,  14 & 15), but your premise that he got better when the QB play improved is not supported by the above in ANY way and you claimed it was fact.

I'm done arguing with you on this Spider. You have your opinion I have mine.

[Spider-Dan]

He ran for four straight 100+ yard games to close out the season, and you "see no pattern"?  OK.

My contention was never that Reggie Bush was good in games in which Moore played well.  I said that he "remembered how to run" (e.g. fired off four straight 100+ yard games) after the team got more effective play from the QB position.  Seeing as how his best games were at the end of the season, how can you possibly argue that he was the cause of Moore playing well, and not the other way around?

[Pappy13]

He ran for four straight 100+ yard games to close out the season, and you "see no pattern"?  OK.

No pattern compared to QB play. Could be the offensive line just started to open more holes for Bush.

My contention was never that Reggie Bush was good in games in which Moore played well.  I said that he "remembered how to run" (e.g. fired off four straight 100+ yard games) after the team got more effective play from the QB position.  Seeing as how his best games were at the end of the season, how can you possibly argue that he was the cause of Moore playing well, and not the other way around?

Moore started playing in week 4. Now it's your contention that the switch from Henne to Moore didn't benefit Bush until week 12? That's a hell of a leap of faith especially when Bush had a 100 yard game in week 7. I'm done. Not another word from me no matter how flimsy your argument is.

[Sunstroke]

Reggie's run of 4 straight 100+ yard games at the end of the season was probably influenced by a number of factors, including the defenses he faced...none of which were good at stopping the run. Philly was the highest ranked run-D of the bunch at #16.

[Spider-Dan]

No pattern compared to QB play. Could be the offensive line just started to open more holes for Bush.

You already admitted that Moore was better than Henne.  So are you simply rejecting the claim that better QB play opens up the running game?

Moore started playing in week 4. Now it's your contention that the switch from Henne to Moore didn't benefit Bush until week 12?

Moore became a starter in the 5th game.
Moore began a streak of consistent quality play in the 8th game.  (You might recall that this was the same time the Dolphins started actually winning games.)
If you want to claim that better QB play has no effect on the ability of the OL to run block, you're welcome to take that position.

That's a hell of a leap of faith especially when Bush had a 100 yard game in week 7.

He posts one 100-yard effort in the first 11 games and it's a "leap of faith" to say that he had a dramatic improvement at the end of the season?  That's almost worse than your "7.1 ypc against the Jets!" citation.

You're the one that claimed that Bush "started to come on well before Moore did."  So if Bush didn't post consecutive 100-yard games until week 14, when was it that Moore started playing better?  Week 17?  The offseason?

I find it hilarious that you accuse me of having a "flimsy argument" when your entire point appears to be that Moore is not the savior of the franchise.  Who, exactly, believes that he is?  Why are you defending Henne in the first place?  What, precisely, are you trying to prove here?

[MikeO]

I find it hilarious that you accuse me of having a "flimsy argument" when your entire point appears to be that Moore is not the savior of the franchise.  Who, exactly, believes that he is?  Why are you defending Henne in the first place?  What, precisely, are you trying to prove here?

Spider, he is playing a card that is often played on this message board by some. It's a 3 prong attack...

1) Make something up out of thin air
2) Come out against it
3) Be outraged over it

Essentially he is arguing with himself because he is arguing against a point or stance nobody has taken