Trayvon Martin case

[Spider-Dan]

I cannot help but feel a rather extreme sense of irony that in a sports-focused forum, I am being challenged on the claims that:

a) a 28-year-old is more likely to have reached maturity from a muscular standpoint, compared to a 17-year-old
b) a 250-pound man would generally have an advantage over a 140-pound man in a fight

Again, if you don't think either of these things are true, I await your explanation as to how this situation would be any different if a 140-pound woman were in Martin's place.

[bsmooth]

Doesn't matter what Zimmerman had on him. He could have had a quart of blood on him and people wouldn't care. People have made up their mind and want blood. Hell, at work I have guys saying that if they were Trayvon that they would have tried to beat Zimmerman's ass if he was following them. I tried to explain that following someone is not illegal but touching and assaulting someone is. Gotta love the fake alpha males, ha ha.....

And you have made up your mind that Martin initiated the fight. Zimmerman admitted he exchanged words, face to face with Martin, and that after that Martin attacked him for no reason.
Witnesses have said Martin was on top before he was shot, but the only person we have as a credible witness as to how the fight started is the guy who killed the unarmed person. Also this same person has a history of violence and confrontation.
So some of us are not buying the word of a man facing possible manslaughter or murder charges, especially since he has a documented history.
What are you basing yours on? You are assuming Zimmerman did not touch Martin or say something that could have provoked a fight, which most states equate to throwing the first punch.

[CF DolFan]

The scenario that makes the most sense to me (given the available information) is that Zimmerman caught up to Martin a second time and attempted to physically detain him.  Martin effectively "resisted arrest," which is not at all difficult to imagine from a teenager, and doesn't require the sort of alpha-male interaction you describe (unless you consider general teenaged rebellion towards authority as fight-or-flight).  The conflict quickly escalated and Martin was shot.

Furthermore, following your train of logic, we would also have to predict that a woman being attacked by a man would be "more ferocious," and therefore, the more dangerous of the two.

I also think that you are failing to account for the fact that one of these participants was a teenager, and the other was a grown ass man.  Just as I would give the advantage to a 250 pounder over a 140 pounder, I would also give the advantage to a 28-year-old over a 17-year-old.

Ok here is the problem I see. At 17, I thought I was King Bad Ass. I didn't have a lot of respect for adults for various reasons and had rarely lost a fight. I already metioned how I was accussed of breaking and entering down the street. Obviously there were reasons why that is. I can tell you if I had an adult questioning me or "confronting me" would have been my interpretation...  I would have kicked off in their arse. I have beat the crap out of several people who did not deserve it just because.  In fact my best friend has an embarasing story of how I beat the crap out of this man (propbably 30) one night and stood over him telling him he just got his ass whooped by a 15 year old. I loved to talk crap when I fought and embarrass people as a larger insult.

I honestly am not bragging and it shouldn't be construed as such. I was a thug. It's embarrasing to me because I work with kids constantly and try to steer them correctly but I have a very colorful past and sometimes people bring it up. Fortunatley for me by the time I was 21 my life had changed direction. By the time I was 27 I was a born again Christian with two kids. I was hardly the punk kid I used to be.  So to me to tell me the 17 year old, who is obviously not afraid to get into trouble, was just fearful and defending himself against the big 250 man with a "history of aggressiveness" ... I'm not buying it. I can tell you now if I was Trayvon I might be dead too as I have done dumber things than that but fortunately got away with it. I've had guns pointed at me on three occassions in my life and fortunately walked away from them. Who knows what would happen today?

I still don't know if George is guilty or innocent but I have a hard time believing Tryvon didn't contribute. I think it sucks because he could have turned his life around as many of us have but unfortunately not all of us get that chance.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

CF, from what know you're a big dude and have always been pretty big.  Were you 140 pounds when you beat this 30 year old's ass? 

The fight of the dog is only as important as his size when he KNOWS how to fight.  You get two equally trained guys to fight in a ring, cage, street ... wherever ... my money will go on the bigger guy 11 times out of 10. 

OF COURSE the possibility of a smaller guy handling his own exists.  However, to say a 110 pound difference makes no difference is extremely asinine.  We're not talking about an obese tub of lard who can barely walk.  We're talking about George Zimmerman who is a pretty stout man and appears to at least be able to defend himself from a vicious, gang-banging, blood-thirsty black thug who only weighs 150 pounds.  Do you really think Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather would knockout Mike Tyson or Lennox Lewis with ease?  Do you think the smaller guys would be able to withstand half a blow from the bigger guys?  Put these same guys on the street and give Mike Tyson a gun ... who would you say would be the victim?

[Tenshot13]

Catch someone on the chin or hit them in the back of the head and they are going down no matter how big.

[Phishfan]

I guess we are just going to continue to ignore the fact that Zimmerman was apparently injured with a substantial sized looking wound on the back of his head and continue to argue how Martin could not have done anything to cause it?

Also, you guys are misrepresenting the size difference quite a bit. The police list Trayvon as 6' 160. The family suggests 6'1" 150. Zimmerman is 5'9". Now I agree his listed weight during his mugshot was 250 but that is in contention now as you all see he is much slimmer. The family suggests he is 190 (I've seen as low as 170 but I doubt that myself) so if we allow the same 10 pound adjust as with Martin that puts him around 200.

Their size difference is nowhere near what you guys are suggesting.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Just like we ignore how Zimmerman is the one who initiated the altercation and deny Trayvon the right to defend himself?  Or the fact that it's been determined by 2 experts that the cries for help in the 911 call were not from Zimmerman.  It must have been Trayvon crying for someone to help him beat the crap out of Zimmerman further...

His wound looks like something someone would get if the fell and hit their head on the sidewalk not repeatedly bashed in by another person.

[Phishfan]

Just like we ignore how Zimmerman is the one who initiated the altercation and deny Trayvon the right to defend himself?

This is speculatory and not fact. That is the key. We know Zimmerman followed Martin at one point. No one knows how the two reconnected. I would like to see evidence of how far Zimmerman was from his vehicle at the point of the shooting. That I do not know.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Catch someone on the chin or hit them in the back of the head and they are going down no matter how big.

So someone who weighs 100 pounds less than you will bring you down the same number of times that you would bring them down?  

[Cathal]

Just like we ignore how Zimmerman is the one who initiated the altercation and deny Trayvon the right to defend himself?

And you know that how? I don't think anyone knows what happened yet...

[Guru-In-Vegas]

This is speculatory and not fact. That is the key. We know Zimmerman followed Martin at one point. No one knows how the two reconnected. I would like to see evidence of how far Zimmerman was from his vehicle at the point of the shooting. That I do not know.

There was the cell-phone call with Trayvon's girlfriend at the time Zimmerman caught up with Trayvon.  He kept saying "I think this guy's following me" when she told him to "just run away".  She could hear Zimmerman talking to Trayvon when all of a sudden the call went dead after what sounded like a scuffle.  You're right though, the facts aren't clear enough but we should try to go off basic things we know.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

And you know that how? I don't think anyone knows what happened yet...

I'm not claiming such and such happened.  But I am shocked how people just try to apologize for the guy without knowing much themselves just like the "hang him now" crowd does the same.  He should have been charged with something so at least some form of investigation would be able to take place.  If he would be found innocent, well then that's that but the simple fact that he got to "get off" with so much evidence pointing in both directions is what irritates me.

[Phishfan]

^^^ We do know she was on the phone with him becuase the records do indeed show that. While I want to take her word at full value, she is not under oath and we have seen that several people are willing to give half truths in their telling/relaying of this story.

I want to be clear in that I am not calling her a liar. It very well may have gone down that way. Or she could be saying what she thinks will help bring this to court. It will be up to the jury to decide and not me (please do not let it be me picked for jury duty if the grand jury indicts).

[Cathal]

I'm not claiming such and such happened.  But I am shocked how people just try to apologize for the guy without knowing much themselves just like the "hang him now" crowd does the same.  He should have been charged with something so at least some form of investigation would be able to take place.  If he would be found innocent, well then that's that but the simple fact that he got to "get off" with so much evidence pointing in both directions is what irritates me.

I have heard very little about this case because I don't want to make up my mind until some speaks who actually has evidence. Granted, it doesn't affect me in any way if he gets off or not, but I would like justice to be served if he did break the law. I agree that it's upsetting people have already chosen sides with the lack of evidence. I'm just gonna wait.

[Spider-Dan]

Also, you guys are misrepresenting the size difference quite a bit. The police list Trayvon as 6' 160. The family suggests 6'1" 150. Zimmerman is 5'9". Now I agree his listed weight during his mugshot was 250 but that is in contention now as you all see he is much slimmer.

Just for the record, the Zimmerman police surveillance tape that was released does not have the same aspect ratio as the original video; the video was squished horizontally to fit.  This makes everyone in that video (the cops, and Zimmerman) appear thinner.

Lawrence O'Donnell had a forensics expert on to analyze the clip (among other things), and they aired an aspect-corrected version of the surveillance video.