Trayvon Martin case

[Dave Gray]

^ I am reading from multiple sources that he was allowed to return home with the gun.  Perhaps the cops came and took the gun later?

[Spider-Dan]

Missed this earlier.

It would be a big deal, but nowhere near the national news item that this case has become...because of the racial issue.If you truly believe it would be "just as big" if it were a black on black shooting, then I think you are out of your mind.

I didn't say it would be "just as big," but it would still be a national story.  Has the revelation that Zimmerman is Hispanic significantly reduced the furor?

He was 17 years old and 6'3", which while the age (unknown to Zimmerman at the time) legally categorizes him as a minor, his size puts him physically in the realm of "adult." The fact that Zimmerman was 250 lbs only indicates to me that "the adult-sized kid" was probably significantly faster than Zimmerman was.

A 17 year old that is 6'3" and 140lbs is practically a bag of bones.  While I wouldn't doubt that Martin could have beaten Zimmerman in a foot race, that does not seem relevant to Zimmerman's claim that Martin represented a deadly threat.

The only thing a dead body would qualify as "evidence" for is that a person had died, not that a crime had been commited.

Zimmerman freely admits killing Martin; a homicide has necessarily taken place.  Your attempt to frame it as "a person has died" (as if the cause of death is shrouded in mystery) is disingenuous, to say the least.

I'd say the robberies that had recently been commited in that gated community would provide the impetus for Zimmerman wanting to follow Martin, especially if, as noted many times in the reports, Zimmerman said that Martin was "acting funny."

Zimmerman had called the police over 40 times in the last year.  His judgment of what is and is not "acting funny" is not exactly impeccable.

The fact that "crimes have occurred" does not give Zimmerman a reason to pursue Martin; he is not a cop, and Martin had committed no crime.  The 911 dispatcher advised him not to follow Martin and he chose to disregard that advice.

Additionally, at the time Zimmerman began following Martin, how in the world could he know if he was armed or not?

It is reasonable to believe that Zimmerman knew Martin was unarmed when he shot him, which is the point.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm fine if the grand jury indicts him and this goes to trial but as the law stands, the police had no evidence to disprove the self defense claims.

I'm really getting tired of seeing this lame ass excuse.

I wonder how much evidence the police need to "disprove" other self-defense claims, to the point where they steadfastly refuse to arrest the shooter.

It seems a minor miracle that suddenly, in Sanford probable cause has become this huge, unscalable barrier to an arrest.  I imagine homicide-related arrests must be extremely low in Florida, given the apparent difficulty in establishing probable cause for arrest if the shooter claims self-defense.

[Phishfan]

I'm getting tired of you lame ass assumption that Zimmerman kept following Marting. We do not know that.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm getting tired of you lame ass assumption that Zimmerman kept following Marting. We do not know that.

It would be nice if you would get your own facts straight before you criticize me.  From the 911 call:

2:09- Zimmerman says Martin is running.
2:20- (sound of wind in cell phone)
2:23- Dispatcher asks, "Are you following him?"
2:25- Zimmerman says, "Yeah."
2:26- Dispatcher says, "OK, we don't need you to do that."
2:28- Zimmerman says, "OK."
2:42- (wind sound ends)

That's 19 seconds from "he's running" and 8 seconds from the sound of wind in the phone.  The 911 call ends at 4:04, over 90 seconds later.  So it takes Zimmerman 90 seconds to get back to his vehicle after a 10-20 second chase, even though the sound of wind ends after 14 seconds?  That's an interesting theory.

[badger6]

The 911 dispatcher advised him not to follow Martin and he chose to disregard that advice.

Point blank, is this your assumption ? Do you personally know this as 100% fact. Yes or no ?

Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him when he was shot.

Besides the fact that almost all media outlets have lied about what race George Zimmerman is (he is a Latino/Mestizo), they are also censoring major important details of the case. Some have even published wild opinions about the 911 calls as if the opinions were factual statements.

Would you be surprised to know that the statements of the eyewitness are being censored in almost every media story about the shooting?

1. When police officers arrived, George Zimmerman had a bloody nose and was bleeding from a wound on the back on his head and was treated by paramedics.
2. The eyewitness who called 911 said Zimmerman who screamed for help.
3. The eyewitness also reports that Zimmerman was on the ground and Martin was on top of him beating on him.

This information was public knowledge at least as early as February 27th.We now have 22 days of rampant media reports that omit these facts. Once you see what information the police had, it is obvious why they did not arrest him. They were simply abiding by Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. Police are now required to have evidence that a shooter was not acting in self-defense.

How many times have you heard the phrase “Trayvon Martin was a cheerful person,” but you had never heard the words of the eye-witness to the shooting?

Each time you see a “mainstream” news outlet rant about the Zimmerman/Martin case, ask yourself why these three facts mentioned above are missing from the story. Ask yourself why the media is called Zimmerman a white man instead of a Latino. Ask yourself if you think the story is really news or is it agitation/propaganda designed to advance a political agenda.

Even if you think Zimmerman was completely unjustified in firing his gun; ask yourself why 99% of the now thousands of articles are solely from the point of view of the grieving family without trying give a balanced account of the events.

[Dave Gray]

Point blank, is this your assumption ? Do you personally know this as 100% fact. Yes or no ?

It doesn't have to be 100% fact for an arrest.  It doesn't even have to be 100% to win in court...but it definitely doesn't have to be for an arrest.

[Cathal]

You guys should really wait for some real evidence to surface. You all are just speculating over most everything. I mean, someone's point is the wind in the cell phone and when it dies down. Really? A gust of wind doesn't exist in this neighborhood?

[badger6]

It doesn't have to be 100% fact for an arrest.  It doesn't even have to be 100% to win in court...but it definitely doesn't have to be for an arrest.

I wasn't talking about an arrest or court. Spiderdan claims that Zimmerman kept following him. I want to know if Spiderdan knows that as fact or it is his assumption. If no one else knows if Zimmerman kept following him. How can Spiderdan ?

[Spider-Dan]

[re: Zimmerman pursued Martin]
Point blank, is this your assumption ? Do you personally know this as 100% fact. Yes or no ?

It is 100% fact that Zimmerman pursued Martin.  The dispatcher asked him, "Are you following him?" and Zimmerman responds, "Yeah."  So that's that.

It is also a fact that on the 911 call, you can hear the sound of wind in Zimmerman's cell phone 11 seconds after he says that Martin is running.  6 seconds later, the dispatcher tells him not to follow Martin, and 14 seconds after that, the sound of wind ends.

So I'd love to hear you explain the cause of that wind sound.  If it's running, Zimmerman was still running 14 seconds after the dispatcher told him not to pursue.  If it's simply being outside on a windy day, then he somehow stopped being outside (read: re-entered his vehicle) 14 seconds later.  So did Martin reach into Zimmerman's SUV and drag him out, or did Zimmerman get out to pursue again?

Remember, in Sanford, none of this qualifies as probable cause.  What a joke.

[Spider-Dan]

You guys should really wait for some real evidence to surface. You all are just speculating over most everything. I mean, someone's point is the wind in the cell phone and when it dies down. Really? A gust of wind doesn't exist in this neighborhood?

Listen to the actual call.  It's not a "gust" of wind; it's continual wind buffeting for over 20 seconds that has a clear and defined start and stop.

[Phishfan]

It would be nice if you would get your own facts straight before you criticize me.  From the 911 call:

2:09- Zimmerman says Martin is running.
2:20- (sound of wind in cell phone)
2:23- Dispatcher asks, "Are you following him?"
2:25- Zimmerman says, "Yeah."
2:26- Dispatcher says, "OK, we don't need you to do that."
2:28- Zimmerman says, "OK."
2:42- (wind sound ends)

That's 19 seconds from "he's running" and 8 seconds from the sound of wind in the phone.  The 911 call ends at 4:04, over 90 seconds later.  So it takes Zimmerman 90 seconds to get back to his vehicle after a 10-20 second chase, even though the sound of wind ends after 14 seconds?  That's an interesting theory.

Those times don't match what I've listened to from our local newspaper but I'm not doubting your recording. That still doesn't mean the time was filled by following Martin. He could have been standing still. He could have paced back and forth. Or he could have continued looking for Martin (I bet you thought I was just going to ignore the possibility). Regardless, it is speculation what he was doing.

[Spider-Dan]

Keeping in mind that the standard we are looking for here is probable cause (which is a very low standard of evidence), given that there were 8 seconds of wind noise before Zimmerman acknowledged the request to cease pursuit, and 14 seconds of wind noise afterwards, is not the most reasonable assumption that he chased him until told to stop, then turned around and re-entered his vehicle?

If that's true, how could Martin have attacked Zimmerman on the way back to his vehicle unless Zimmerman got out to pursue again?  Is it reasonable to believe that someone who ran away from Zimmerman's vehicle would then secretly pursue said vehicle on foot?

This is exactly the kind of logic that makes this case an issue.  In order to avoid escalating Zimmerman's role to one where the claim of self-defense becomes questionable, you have to make these crazy presumptions that essentially paint Martin as a sociopath.  This 17-year-old who went to the store to buy some candy for his brother is going to run away from Zimmerman, only to circle back and pounce on him (while unarmed)... but the extremely enthusiastic neighborhood watchman who has called over 40 times in a year, and who chooses to personally pursue (on foot) a person he deems suspicious, wouldn't track him down and try to apprehend him himself?

[badger6]

It is 100% fact that Zimmerman pursued Martin.  The dispatcher asked him, "Are you following him?" and Zimmerman responds, "Yeah."  So that's that.

No that's not that !!! We all know that Zimmerman followed Martin before the dispatcher told him, "Ok, we don't need you to do that." But what you are implying is that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after he was told that he didn't have to. As seen bolded in the following quote made by you.

The fact that "crimes have occurred" does not give Zimmerman a reason to pursue Martin; he is not a cop, and Martin had committed no crime.  The 911 dispatcher advised him not to follow Martin and he chose to disregard that advice.

So now instead of talking in circles. Tell me fine sir, is it a known fact that Zimmerman disregarded the dispatchers advice and continued to follow Martin ? Yes or no ?

Although I don't agree with Zimmerman's choice. The fact that "crimes have occurred" gives gave Zimmerman, a member of community watch, every reason he thought he needed to follow Martin. I can follow anyone anywhere I want to on public property...........

It is reasonable to believe that Zimmerman knew Martin was unarmed when he shot him, which is the point.

GTFO with that shit. How in he hell would Zimmerman know if Martin was armed or not ? With his special undercover X-ray glasses ? Put the bong down, your arguments are getting sillier and sillier by the toke. LMFAO................

[bsmooth]

Point blank, is this your assumption ? Do you personally know this as 100% fact. Yes or no ?

Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him when he was shot.

Besides the fact that almost all media outlets have lied about what race George Zimmerman is (he is a Latino/Mestizo), they are also censoring major important details of the case. Some have even published wild opinions about the 911 calls as if the opinions were factual statements.

Would you be surprised to know that the statements of the eyewitness are being censored in almost every media story about the shooting?

1. When police officers arrived, George Zimmerman had a bloody nose and was bleeding from a wound on the back on his head and was treated by paramedics.
2. The eyewitness who called 911 said Zimmerman who screamed for help.
3. The eyewitness also reports that Zimmerman was on the ground and Martin was on top of him beating on him.

This information was public knowledge at least as early as February 27th.We now have 22 days of rampant media reports that omit these facts. Once you see what information the police had, it is obvious why they did not arrest him. They were simply abiding by Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. Police are now required to have evidence that a shooter was not acting in self-defense.

How many times have you heard the phrase “Trayvon Martin was a cheerful person,” but you had never heard the words of the eye-witness to the shooting?

Each time you see a “mainstream” news outlet rant about the Zimmerman/Martin case, ask yourself why these three facts mentioned above are missing from the story. Ask yourself why the media is called Zimmerman a white man instead of a Latino. Ask yourself if you think the story is really news or is it agitation/propaganda designed to advance a political agenda.

Even if you think Zimmerman was completely unjustified in firing his gun; ask yourself why 99% of the now thousands of articles are solely from the point of view of the grieving family without trying give a balanced account of the events.

Zimmerman is half white/mexican. So the reports are half correct. The witnesses only saw the fight after they heard screams. Zimmerman admitted he followed Martin, he also admits Martin approached him from his left and asked if he had a problem. Zimmerman also admits they exchanged words. Zimmerman claims he turned around, pulled out his cell phone out of his pocket, and was attacked. We have no idea what words were exchanged and if Zimmerman said something that could have provoked a fight.
The only person who can verify this attack is Zimmerman. A guy with a history of violence and blaming it on others( he blamed the cop in his arrest, he blamed his ex fiance for the domestic dispute, he blames Martin). This guy has a history also of following and confronting people he believes are suspicious.
Once again only one of these two people has a history of violence and confrontation documented in court records and 911 calls, and it is not the dead one.