Trayvon Martin case

[Phishfan]

I guess that's where we disagree and I'll just have to leave it at that.  I don't think my actions should be legally protected in that case.  I don't think that you should be able to incite that violence and then respond with greater violence.

Whether or not Zimmerman did that will be determined.   And then whether or not he's protected if he did it will be determined as well.

And I don't think you have the responsibility to be killed (remember the key is that you are in fear of your own life or great bodily harm) because of your own stupidity. I don't see protecting your life as using a greater force. Either way at least we can discuss it civily.

[Dave Gray]

^ I agree that I don't deserve to be killed in that scenario.

But I think that the defense of "fear of being killed" is flimsy.  If you were in fear of the person, you would've have put yourself in that situation.  If I were afraid of getting killed by a black guy on the street, I wouldn't be following them around calling them n*****.  I guess that's the point.  I don't believe for a second that Zimmerman was in fear for his life.  ...not for a second.  I think that if that were a reasonable fear, he wouldn't have been as aggressive in his behavior.

[Phishfan]

I don't think getting into that position is where you rate the fear. The fear needs to be in the immediacy of the fight. I know that opens a can of worms in terms of what constitutes real fear. I think we need to see the closeup photos of Zimmerman's injuries (I really hope the police took photos) and hear the testimony of the EMT to know what damage was really done in order to rule how much fear he should have had at that time.

[badger6]

It's not your question that's racist.  First off, you're using dog whistles, with terms like "thug out of a rap video".  But the bigger point is that rap videos have nothing to do with this case.  An unarmed minor was shot.  Somehow relating his behavior in the moment (of walking home) to a "thug out of a rap video" is a gross generalization based on race.  If this were a white boy that was shot under the same circumstances, I highly doubt you'd be talking about rap videos.

Dog whistles ? Don't even know what that means.

Anyhow, my counterpoint to EK's ONLY POSSIBLE scenario that could have happened.

If he didn't continue, and he admitted that Martin was running away, then how did they get into an altercation AT ALL? The only possible way that could happen is if he did, in fact continue. He admitted that Martin was fleeing. That's not an assumption. That's a fact. -EK

Just as likely a scenario is that Martin had the "no one is gonna disrespect me" attitude and initiated physical contact. Rap videos may not have anything to do with what happened. They do however have plenty to do with how many young people act these days. A good majority of those young people are black. That is not racist, that is just the way it is. There is a violent and thug aspect to it regardless. Whether Zimmerman is guilty of murder or a victim who fought back really doesn’t matter to any of the media or any of the others who seem to have "an agenda" in this. In the end, all they care about is the fact you’re tuned in giving them their ratings. If this were a white boy that was shot this whole thread wouldn't exist because it wouldn't make ratings.

[badger6]

^ I agree that I don't deserve to be killed in that scenario.

But I think that the defense of "fear of being killed" is flimsy.  If you were in fear of the person, you would've have put yourself in that situation.  If I were afraid of getting killed by a black guy on the street, I wouldn't be following them around calling them n*****.  I guess that's the point.  I don't believe for a second that Zimmerman was in fear for his life.  ...not for a second.  I think that if that were a reasonable fear, he wouldn't have been as aggressive in his behavior.

What position did Zimmerman put himself in ? He followed someone. Of course he wasn't in fear for his life while following Martin. If he was attacked though, he had every right to fear for his life at that point. If that's what happened of course. I wouldn't expect to be attacked for following someone. The way I see it is that whoever initiated "physical contact" is ultimately at fault in this situation !!!

[Spider-Dan]

I have a hypothetical question:

Let's say I arm myself and go out to the hood.  (I am legally protected to do this.)
Let's say I pick a black guy and follow him around. (I am legally protected to do this.)
When he looks at me or question me, I call him a "n*****". (I am legally protected to do this.)

Let's say he gets angry and punches me.  Can I then shoot him in self defense?

There is a legal term known as "fighting words".  These words (which include hate speech) are "those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" and are not protected speech under the First Amendment.  IANAL, but I believe that if you were to make this kind of statement to another person, it would greatly damage your claims of "self-defense" in court, as you effectively incited the fight.

[Spider-Dan]

Your speaking assumtions and not specifics. There has been no proof he confronted anyone. In fact the 911 tape offers the opposite as he stopped pursuing, if you believe he stopped when the wind stopped, and then he continued talking to the operator for another 1 and a half minutes after being suggested " OK. We don't need you to do that". This whole assumtion that he must have continued is as much as an assumtion that he confronted him. You just as well assume he went to the moon too because none of the evidence says he went to the moon.

Actually, the 911 tapes indicate the opposite.  If you listen to the tapes, the wind sound starts and continues for ~10 seconds, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he is pursuing and advised him to stop doing so, the wind sound continues for ~10 more seconds, and then it stops.  So either:

a) Zimmerman continued pursuing Martin for 10 more seconds after the dispatcher told him not to, then finally stopped, or
b) the wind sound corresponds to when Zimmerman exited his car, and after the dispatcher told him to stop following, the wind sound continued until Zimmerman got back into his car

If b) is the case, it means that after the call ended, Zimmerman got out of his car again.  I leave it to the reader as to determine the most reasonable explanation for why that would be.

Furthermore, if you look at the map that Dave posted:



Ignore the "assumed path" speculation and just look at where Zimmerman's car was, where Martin went into "the walkway between houses" (as Zimmerman claimed), where Martin's residence was, and where Martin was shot.  Look at the possible entryways into the walkway between houses.

Now try to explain how Zimmerman (who can be expected to have known this area reasonably well, being the self-appointed head of the neighborhood watch) could POSSIBLY have crossed paths with Martin at the location of the shooting WITHOUT specifically and intentionally taking an intercept path.

[Spider-Dan]

Dog whistles ? Don't even know what that means.

A "dog whistle" is a thinly-veiled code word for a statement that would not be appropriate to say directly.  For example, any time anyone in politics references "urban," "inner-city," or "hip-hop" (in a negative context), you can just replace that word with "black" and discern the true meaning of that statement.

A non-racial example would be asking if a judge believes there is a constitutional right to privacy.  This is a dog whistle for whether or not the judge supports legalized abortion, as the "right to privacy" was one of the foundations of the Roe vs. Wade decision.

Rap videos may not have anything to do with what happened. They do however have plenty to do with how many young people act these days. A good majority of those young people are black. That is not racist, that is just the way it is.

Surely you can cite some empirical evidence for your totally-not-racist claims that the majority of aggressive (?) youths are black...?

I was unaware that (apparently since the invention of rap) white youths in the northeast and south had become much more passive and non-violent than their black counterparts.  I look forward to your data, sir.

[bsmooth]

It is funny that Badger keeps bringing up rap videos and thuggish behavior.
Yet the phone records show that Martin was on the phone up to the moments leading to the shooting, and there is a witness who heard Zimmerman approach Martin and they started exchanging words.
Also what is conveniently ignored is the fact that Martin was shot and killed on grass, and therefore Zimmerman was on his back on grass.
It is Zimmerman's story put forth by both him and his family that has changed multiple times.
So Zimmerman went out of his way to confront Martin, who was moving away from him.
The screams on 911 were not Zimmerman, yet it is still brought up.
I still think it is manslaughter.

[Spider-Dan]

bsmooth, how could it be manslaughter?

If Martin started the fight, it's self-defense (i.e. nothing).
If Zimmerman started the fight, it's murder.

I guess you might be able to argue that Martin started the fight but Zimmerman used excessive force to end it?  The laws in Florida would seem to make that a difficult sell.

[Phishfan]

Actually, the 911 tapes indicate the opposite.  If you listen to the tapes, the wind sound starts and continues for ~10 seconds, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he is pursuing and advised him to stop doing so, the wind sound continues for ~10 more seconds, and then it stops.  So either:

a) Zimmerman continued pursuing Martin for 10 more seconds after the dispatcher told him not to, then finally stopped, or
b) the wind sound corresponds to when Zimmerman exited his car, and after the dispatcher told him to stop following, the wind sound continued until Zimmerman got back into his car

You left out option c which is also very plausible if you have ever been on the phone in the wind. Zimmerman turned around and the wind no longer blew directly into the microphone.

[Spider-Dan]

You left out option c which is also very plausible if you have ever been on the phone in the wind. Zimmerman turned around and the wind no longer blew directly into the microphone.

That is possible.  However, since the sound didn't immediately stop when he received (and acknowledged) the direction to cease pursuit, that theory would require that he "delayed turning around" for almost exactly the amount of time it would have taken him to get back to his car.  So if the hypothesis is that he didn't continue following Martin after being instructed otherwise, the most charitable conclusion is that he stopped in place, waited 10 seconds, then turned around.

All of that is nearly academic, anyway; as I just pointed out, there's almost literally no way he could have encountered Martin at the location of the shooting without attempting to intercept him (after being advised not to).  Based on the location of his car, it seems clear that he did not abandon pursuit.

[badger6]

A "dog whistle" is a thinly-veiled code word for a statement that would not be appropriate to say directly.  For example, any time anyone in politics references "urban," "inner-city," or "hip-hop" (in a negative context), you can just replace that word with "black" and discern the true meaning of that statement.

A non-racial example would be asking if a judge believes there is a constitutional right to privacy.  This is a dog whistle for whether or not the judge supports legalized abortion, as the "right to privacy" was one of the foundations of the Roe vs. Wade decision.

Sorry, I don't need any code words to say what I mean. Why would it be not appropriate to say something negative about urban, inner city, hip hop, or black if it's true ?

Surely you can cite some empirical evidence for your totally-not-racist claims that the majority of aggressive (?) youths are black...?

Well, since you asked for it. Here ya go chief.

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/youthviolence/stats_at-a_glance/hr_trends_race.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/youthviolence/stats_at-a_glance/hr_age-race.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/youthviolence/stats_at-a_glance/hr_female.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/youthviolence/stats_at-a_glance/hr_male.html

The first link pretty much tells the story. Looks like the the highest violence corresponded to the east vs west rap thing in the early 90s and has declined and leveled out since. The homicide rates as of 2007 are still 3 times that compared to others in the graph. But I guess that information is totally racist....

I was unaware that (apparently since the invention of rap) white youths in the northeast and south had become much more passive and non-violent than their black counterparts.  I look forward to your data, sir.

Data above shows more black violence than any other group. But I guess rap, role models, and lifestyles that portray a fake TV image have absolutely nothing to do with it, huh ?

[EKnight]

Ignorance, hate, prejudice, and racism are every bit as responsible as well. So as long as you're pointing fingers and making judgements about people based on the color of their skin, be sure to have a mirror handy to point some blame at yourself. Because some black people act a certain way, then surely Martin must act that way too, right? So... Since some hillbilly rednecks put on sheets, burn crosses and lynch minorities, all white people must do that too, right? This kind of simple-minded attack on groups of people isn't new, though. I get that. We watched old black and white films about it in high school, but I couldn't understand the narration because it was in German.  -EK

[CF DolFan]

Actually, the 911 tapes indicate the opposite.  If you listen to the tapes, the wind sound starts and continues for ~10 seconds, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he is pursuing and advised him to stop doing so, the wind sound continues for ~10 more seconds, and then it stops.  So either:

a) Zimmerman continued pursuing Martin for 10 more seconds after the dispatcher told him not to, then finally stopped, or
b) the wind sound corresponds to when Zimmerman exited his car, and after the dispatcher told him to stop following, the wind sound continued until Zimmerman got back into his car

If b) is the case, it means that after the call ended, Zimmerman got out of his car again.  I leave it to the reader as to determine the most reasonable explanation for why that would be.

Furthermore, if you look at the map that Dave posted:



Ignore the "assumed path" speculation and just look at where Zimmerman's car was, where Martin went into "the walkway between houses" (as Zimmerman claimed), where Martin's residence was, and where Martin was shot.  Look at the possible entryways into the walkway between houses.

Now try to explain how Zimmerman (who can be expected to have known this area reasonably well, being the self-appointed head of the neighborhood watch) could POSSIBLY have crossed paths with Martin at the location of the shooting WITHOUT specifically and intentionally taking an intercept path.

Assuming the top of the page is north then Zimmerman could have already been behind the building when told to stop and was walking back another way than he got there. I do this all the time when walking through these townhome neighborhoods. We do not know how long Trayvon was on the north side of the building or if he was hiding. On first thougth it seems odd that Martin was ahead of Zimmerman but yet Zimmerman not only made it all the way around the building before Martin but was heading back towards the north before Martin got there. I would have to askwhere was he or waht was he doing during that time as Zimmerman covered much more ground during that time.