Fins Take Tannehill

[Pappy13]

^^ Ok, so let's talk stats for just a second. Egnew had 90 catches for 762 yards and 5 TD's in 2010 when Blaine Gabbert was QB. He dropped to 50 catches for 523 yards and 3 TD's in 2011 when Gabbert wasn't there. Granted it's college, but those are still some pretty impressive stats from a TE and that's only 1 3rd round pick, that still leaves another.

But the real issue EK is you CAN'T just talk stats. You have to look at the big picture. Miami was bringing in a new coaching staff and that's important, it WASN'T just a new head coach it's a completely new coaching staff practically from top to bottom. The old coaching staff had a completely different approach to the offense. I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of a WCO because I really don't know jack shit, but what I do know is Philbin and Sherman have been doing this an awful long time and they've been extremely successful at it. The 2 of them have forgotten more about the WCO then you and I know combined. How in the heck do you think THEY came to the conclusion that trading Marshall was a good decision? Do you think they just flipped a coin? I don't think flipping a coin had much to do with it. I think they thought about it long and hard and decided they needed more pieces to move around on the board. They subtracted Marshall and added a free agent in Naanee. Then they went and got a QB, RT, TE, RB and 2 WR's in the draft. Then they picked up a couple more guys as undrafted free agents. They GOT more pieces to fit into the puzzle. Will the puzzle be complete? I highly doubt it after just 1 draft, but it's what they wanted to do. From that perspective it was a highly successful draft.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I agree with Spider on this one.

Not so much for the reason he gave, but the position he playes.  Defensive lineman and linebackers are very scheme dependant, you can be great in a 4-3 and suck in a 3-4.  Likewise different offensive schemes require TEs that are better at blocking or better than catching.

But there isn't a single pro-offensive scheme that doesn't benifit from a deep threat WR.  

[Diehard_Dolfan]

We can debate this all offseason but, it's done!    We don't know what the plan for Fasano or anyone else is at this point...   Philbin is our head coach... he wanted these guys I trust his decision!   I could care less what anyone on a forum thinks about our draft choices as long as he's happy with them!   Obviously we aren't draft guru's because we're here on this forum not out making a living off our draft prowess!

I look at Marshall like T.O. ... both San Fran and Philly gave up on him when he was very productive for them!  You don't feed cancer you try to get rid off it before it spreads!  I wanted Marshall just as much if not more than anyone but he's a cancer!

[Pappy13]

I agree with Spider on this one.

Not so much for the reason he gave, but the position he playes.  Defensive lineman and linebackers are very scheme dependant, you can be great in a 4-3 and suck in a 3-4.  Likewise different offensive schemes require TEs that are better at blocking or better than catching.

But there isn't a single pro-offensive scheme that doesn't benifit from a deep threat WR.   

Hartline was about as good of a deep threat target as Marshall was last year. Marshall was targetted 144 times last year and caught 17 passes of more than 20 yards for an 11.8% chance. Hartline was targetted 68 times last year and caught 8 passes of more than 20 yards an 11.8% chance. Marshall averaged 8.6 yards per target, Hartline averaged 8.1 yards per target. You probably remember Marshall a lot more than Hartline because Marshall caught 2 40+ yard passes against New England in that last game, but that wasn't typical for Marshall.

If you don't consider 20+ yard catches a deep threat, let's change that to 30+ and see the numbers. Marshall 8 catches or 5.5% chance, Hartline, 6 catches or 8.8% chance.

Gates is faster than either Marshall or Hartline by a good bit, I expect to see him on the field a lot more this year.

[Phishfan]

better at blocking or better than catching.

But there isn't a single pro-offensive scheme that doesn't benifit from a deep threat WR.  

Miami hasnt had a deep threat receiver in a very long time. I assume you are referring to Marshall? He isn't a deep threat guy. He is a catch and run guy.

[Spider-Dan]

The WCO depends heavily on catch-and-run.

[Pappy13]

The WCO depends heavily on catch-and-run.

It also depends heavily on precise route running and timing, unselfish receivers who may be asked to "clear" an area for someone else and a QB who makes the right progressions and get's the ball to the open player. It doesn't rely on the QB simply throwing the ball to the #1 receiver even if he's covered and letting him go get it which is Marshall's idea of a good play.

[Spider-Dan]

It also depends heavily on precise route running and timing,

Where has anyone criticized Marshall's route running?

unselfish receivers who may be asked to "clear" an area for someone else

...which makes it exactly like every other system...

and a QB who makes the right progressions and get's the ball to the open player.

...which, again, is exactly like the other offense(s) MIA has had for the last 60 years.

It doesn't rely on the QB simply throwing the ball to the #1 receiver even if he's covered and letting him go get it which is Marshall's idea of a good play.

I imagine that it also does not rely on your wide receivers telling your offensive coordinators how to call a game.

"Marshall wouldn't fit" is a lazy excuse.  If you want to get rid of the most talented skill position player on your team because you can't handle his personality, say so.

Of course, you won't see Ireland say that, because Marshall has exactly the same personality today as he did when Ireland traded for him.

[Phishfan]

If you want to get rid of the most talented skill position player on your team because you can't handle his personality, say so.

Of course, you won't see Ireland say that, because Marshall has exactly the same personality today as he did when Ireland traded for him.

Ross basically put it that way when he said Marshall would have been cut if they could not have traded him. Also, Parcells pulled the trigger on that trade, not Ireland. When Parcells was in Miami Ireland was nothing more than a figure head.

I agree with your position that Marshall not being a fit is a crazy reason. It was completely based on the difficulty people have working with him.

[MikeO]

I'd just like to interject that it's not necessarily that Fasano doesn't fit the system, but that perhaps that Egnew fits the system better and you need more than 1 TE in this league. I don't think Fasano or Clay are going anywhere, but the rest of the guys that call themselves TE on the team should definately be looking for a spot on another team.

GB carried 5 Tight Ends last year. The offense they ran (which will be similar if not exact to what we are running) will be heavy on TE's.

[MikeO]

When you have one of the worst offenses in the league, you definitely don't say, "We need to rebuild our offense... let's start by getting rid of the only Pro Bowl skill position player on that side of the ball."  If the offense is bad to begin with, how does shipping off your best players help?

You haven't gotten past the Brandon Marshall thing yet? Seriously bro, its old news. Time to move on. He's gone!

[MikeO]

But there isn't a single pro-offensive scheme that doesn't benifit from a deep threat WR.  

They did draft Clyde Gates (deep threat and speed) last year in Rd 3 and expect him to do more this year at WR. Hell he has a chance to start. Ireland said in a radio interview part of getting Miller was so he can return kickoffs and punts so Gates can focus on WR more this upcoming year.

[Pappy13]

Where has anyone criticized Marshall's route running?

Well I don't consider it a strength of his. Marshall said the best route runner on the team was Bess and compared him to some all time great route runners (he wasn't on the list)

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/29716/marshall-calls-bess-top-all-time-route-runner

I don't think the WCO is like every other system, otherwise why would they call it the WCO? Wouldn't they ALL be called that? My understanding is that it relies more on quick reads, precise routes and precise timing, crosses etc then other systems do. Not that other systems don't have that, just that it's a bigger part of the offense then some other offenses. Most offenses have bits of pieces of every other offense in them, it's how you mix and match them that makes the offense different.

[Diehard_Dolfan]

I think people are reading too much into the TE issue... Look at Green Bay receivers!

• Donald Driver - Alcorn St
• Greg Jennings - Western Michigan
• Jordy Nelson - Kansas State
• Randall Cobb - Kentucky

None of these guys were highly touted receivers... Jordy Nelson was considered slow and was thought of as a better choice to play safety.  Randall Cobb was a QB that was moved to receiver...   

Oh, by the way... Driver was a 7th round pick!

[Spider-Dan]

I don't think the WCO is like every other system, otherwise why would they call it the WCO? Wouldn't they ALL be called that?

My point is that you specifically mentioned that the WCO requires "unselfish" receivers and QBs that can make their progressions (not just throw the ball to the same guy every down).  Is there some other offensive system that thrives with a selfish receiver that you throw the ball to over and over?  Because I can't think of any, and I certainly don't think the Bears or Shanahan's Broncos fit that bill.

I mean, if you look at a passing philosophy that's basically the opposite of the WCO, the Gillman/Coryell downfield-attack offense (like what the Greatest Show on Turf-era Rams ran), they still rely on unselfish receivers and progression reads.