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Author Topic: Hate for Hartline  (Read 14718 times)
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2012, 03:08:22 pm »

Wait, so Schaub and Stafford- he of the 97.2 QB rating 5038   passing yards and 41 TDs last year- are second tier QBs? Interesting.... -EK
You realize that being higher than a second-tier QB means... he would be in the top-tier, right?

Is there anyone on the planet that believes that Stafford or Schaub is equal to Brady/Brees/Rodgers right now?  There's a clear gap.  When Brees threw for 5000+ yards in 2008, that didn't make him equal to Brady or P.Manning then.

I will give you that Stafford might be able to make that jump soon.  Schaub will never be in that tier; his ceiling is about equal to Philip Rivers.

P.S. Throwing for 5000+ yards in a season when two other QB throw for more than 5200 kind of diminishes the impact of the accomplishment.  It's kind of like hitting 66 home runs in a season when someone else hits 70.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 03:14:40 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

EKnight
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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2012, 04:30:36 pm »

No... It only diminishes it in your narrow scope. Just about everyone else in the world looked at Stafford's numbers and said that he's a definite top tier. 5th in QB rating, 3rd in passing yards, 3rd in TDs? In two of the three biggest stat categories he only had two guys ahead of him and he's NOT top tier? So if you're not one of the top two QBs in football you're second tier? Seriously? This logic is out there, even for you.

I don't know where you were in 2008, but when Drew Brees had 5000+ yards and 34 TDs he won the AP offensive player of the year AHEAD of those guys you mentioned.

Regarding Schaub, he may not be top tier anymore, I will grant you, but before he got hurt last year, he was on his way to his third straight very impressive season. I will acquiesce on him. I remembered his play and numbers being better than they were. -EK
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Landshark
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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2012, 04:35:57 pm »

No... It only diminishes it in your narrow scope. Just about everyone else in the world looked at Stafford's numbers and said that he's a definite top tier. 5th in QB rating, 3rd in passing yards, 3rd in TDs? In two of the three biggest stat categories he only had two guys ahead of him and he's NOT top tier? So if you're not one of the top two QBs in football you're second tier? Seriously? This logic is out there, even for you.

Stafford has proven himself to be injury prone.  His numbers for 2011 may have looked great, but he needs to do that on a consistent basis for the next three or four years to jump up into that top tier realm. 

As for Hartline, he has done a nice job for the spot he was drafted in.  However, going into the season with him as the number one receiver won't scare anyone.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2012, 05:54:40 pm »

MIA hasn't even had a second-tier QB in decades.  Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson seem to do pretty good with second-tier QBs.
What have they won?
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2012, 07:08:21 pm »

I am not buying the race angle. 

I do think as a class Dolphin fans are a pretty fickle fan base who tend to hate any of their own offensive players unless they play at a level at or HIGHER than Marino and Duper. 

What I mean by that, is while most Jets fans were touting Sanchez and the next coming of Montana, most Dolphin fans were calling Henne the next coming of Ryan Leaf, even though I think they are about equal.  Not great, but not horrible. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 07:10:58 pm by MyGodWearsAHoodie » Logged

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Diehard_Dolfan
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« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2012, 08:32:04 pm »

I am not buying the race angle. 

I do think as a class Dolphin fans are a pretty fickle fan base who tend to hate any of their own offensive players unless they play at a level at or HIGHER than Marino and Duper. 

What I mean by that, is while most Jets fans were touting Sanchez and the next coming of Montana, most Dolphin fans were calling Henne the next coming of Ryan Leaf, even though I think they are about equal.  Not great, but not horrible. 

AGREED!

Most "Miami" fans are fare weather fans and that's for all sports we have in Miami!   If the team is winning and the talk of the sports world everyone crawls from under rocks and sport their colors... the second they loose two in a row the band wagon starts grinding to a snail pace and stop!
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2012, 03:04:11 am »

No... It only diminishes it in your narrow scope. Just about everyone else in the world looked at Stafford's numbers and said that he's a definite top tier.
I would love to see you cite any article from a major sports website that rates Stafford above Brady, Brees or Rodgers.  He's clearly below all three of them, which is why he's not in the first tier.

If you think that Stafford's 5000 yards is not diminished by Brees and Brady both throwing for 5200+ yards (and breaking a 25-year-old record), coming off of a lockout-shortened offseason no less, I don't know what to tell you.  I guess you must also view Sosa's three seasons of 60+ HRs as one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of sport.

I will make the following bold claims right now:

1) There will never be another instance of three QBs throwing for over 5000 yards in the same season
2) Stafford will never throw for 5000+ yards again

Which of those do you disagree with?

Quote
5th in QB rating, 3rd in passing yards, 3rd in TDs?
...for one year.  Awesome.

Quote
In two of the three biggest stat categories he only had two guys ahead of him and he's NOT top tier?
In 2010, Philip Rivers was 1st in yards, 2nd in rating, 5th in TDs.  Guess he's also in the top tier.
In 2009, Matt Schaub was 1st in yards, 5th in TDs, 7th in rating.  Welcome to the club!*
In 2007, Tony Romo was 2nd in TDs, 3rd in yards, 5th in rating.  Top tier getting crowded!

One good year does not brand you as ultra-elite.  While Stafford had a very good 2011 and was able to play all 16 games for the first time in his 3-year career, his passer rating over the previous 13 games he had played (because that's all he had played) was a Brady Quinn-esque 67.1.

Quote
I don't know where you were in 2008, but when Drew Brees had 5000+ yards and 34 TDs he won the AP offensive player of the year AHEAD of those guys you mentioned.
Gee, I guess Peyton Manning (a QB) must have been pretty sad to take home his NFL MVP instead of the Offensive Player of the Year.  You do realize that the Offensive Player of the Year award is basically the consolation prize, right?

In 2008, Brees was not yet a top-tier QB.  He elevated himself with his consistency of play since then.  You cannot say the same for Stafford.

Quote
Regarding Schaub, he may not be top tier anymore, I will grant you, but before he got hurt last year, he was on his way to his third straight very impressive season. I will acquiesce on him. I remembered his play and numbers being better than they were.
*And this is my point.  There needs to be a body of evidence before you declare a QB to be among the ultra-elite.

One very good year puts you solidly in the 2nd tier (see Rivers, Schaub, Romo).  To get into the first tier, you need more than that.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 03:11:51 am by Spider-Dan » Logged

EKnight
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« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2012, 06:29:31 am »

That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. There's no law that says the top tier QBs must be limited to just three names. Stafford doesn't need to be ranked ahead of thise three guys to be top tier. That's a nonsense argument. He can be behind them and STILL be top tier. What makes three the magical cut off numer? Couldn't I just as easily say only two and one of your three is out? Schaub, Rivers, and Romo have ALL been considered top tier at some point in their career, even if you disagree with it. Oddly, you keep mentioning Manning, by which you must mean Eli, because Peyton's numbers were already declining before he missed an entire year. You know it's been 8 years since he had more than 33 TDs in a season right? Only cracked 4500 yards twice in that time in a "QB league." So if you're counting Peyton as still elite and top tier, there's no way you can not include Stafford. It's not a "career award." It's how good are you now? -EK
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Phishfan
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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2012, 09:22:09 am »

Another Dolphin related thread about to be derailed by a debate about non-Dolphin players. When will you guys stop?
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2012, 11:23:36 am »

edit: Fine, I will split this discussion and return this thread to the regularly scheduled idling.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 11:29:19 am by Spider-Dan » Logged

Landshark
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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2012, 08:12:59 pm »

Another Dolphin related thread about to be derailed by a debate about non-Dolphin players. When will you guys stop?

Nothing wrong with that.
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