More educated than uneducated people are now unemployed

[MaineDolFan]

On the macro level, I would guess any "hot" area of the economy eventually becomes saturated and the opportunity there dramatically decreases (although perhaps not as violently as the real estate industry did four years ago).

Not always.  Case in point: Nursing.  I've been trying to move away from my per diem hours for years, literally, and I can't.  The hospital where I work per diem can't get their hands on enough qualified nurses.  I field calls on a weekly basis from six to ten other places within a 60 mile drive from my home offering me anywhere from per diem hours to pretty nice full time positions.

Whatever the reason (I have a lot of theories), nursing is a field where there is a lot of room for growth.  Straight out of the shoot, a new graduate is looking at earning anywhere from $25-$28 an hour (plus shift differential), plus very good benefits and hours.

It's hard work, but very rewarding.

[MaineDolFan]

Hogwash propaganda. You have been programmed...........

Not true at all.

Let me ask you this:  It's late at night and you're walking.  No one is around.  You suddenly feel pain everywhere, however more in your left arm and radiating to your chest.  You can't move, you can't communicate and you aren't breathing well.  Would you rather the following be the best person be the next one to come across you:

1:  A very hard worker, however with their GED, or;
2:  Me?

See, I've been "programmed" as well.  My "programming" was in the form of undergraduate studies, some of which I tend to agree was eye rolling to an outsider point of view who has a closed mind about the importance of building critical thinking.  I'm not sure why I was allowed to take acting.  Yes, acting.  I fluffed out a few courses on my way to my first B.A.  However the first B.A. built the foundation to my bachelor of science - in nursing.  No fluff.  All science, math, nursing.  This degree led to my advancement to my MSN.  Very hard.  I was not reading about Socrates or discussing how large the Shakespeare canon is.

I was being "programmed."

So, I'll ask again.  You're suddenly dying on the sidewalk and you're not sure why.  Help is not a phone call away.  Do you want the forklift operator to happen upon you...or me?

Please do not discount, nor dismiss, the value of education (and the foundation of education).  Mine helps me save lives.

[Dave Gray]

I think that college is very important.  I am very glad that I went, I consider it heavily when hiring, and I recognize its value.

I think where we went wrong is to assume that everyone needs to go to college.  I do believe that post high-school training should be a goal for everyone in this country.  But I don't think that needs to be college.  I have friends that I grew up with that weren't "college material".  It wasn't even a matter of whether they were book-smart enough (they were not), but more importantly, they weren't likely to end up with a job that was going to benefit from the collegiate skillset.

They eventually found their place, but only after wasting money and time trying to follow a path that didn't fit.

I think that we should be teaching our kids to choose a smart path for them and then prepare them for that path.  ...this should even start at the high school level.

Here's the rub:
With teacher influence, race and class become a problem when our natural tendencies to categorize students makes us push poor black kids toward manual labor and wealthy whites towards college, without truly evaluating their skill-sets and giving them the best advice.  I'm not quick to call it racism (especially not on purpose), but this is how things happen...

[Spider-Dan]

I think that's a logical result, Dave.  Put rather simply, if you are from a lower-income family, unless you can get a full ride scholarship to college, it's going to be very difficult to afford a degree in today's climate.  Conversely, if you are from a higher-income family, your parents can pay for your education.  So basically, poor kids go into trades, manufacturing, or service industry (unless they have exceptional grades), while more wealthy kids go to college.

It's a little disheartening from an egalitarian standpoint, but as long as certain groups don't completely de-fund college scholarships, poor kids at least have an opportunity to get out of the cycle.

[SCFinfan]

Not always.  Case in point: Nursing.  I've been trying to move away from my per diem hours for years, literally, and I can't.  The hospital where I work per diem can't get their hands on enough qualified nurses.  I field calls on a weekly basis from six to ten other places within a 60 mile drive from my home offering me anywhere from per diem hours to pretty nice full time positions.

Whatever the reason (I have a lot of theories), nursing is a field where there is a lot of room for growth.  Straight out of the shoot, a new graduate is looking at earning anywhere from $25-$28 an hour (plus shift differential), plus very good benefits and hours.

It's hard work, but very rewarding.

What are your theories?

Consider yourself lucky, by the way...

[Pappy13]

I'd be willing to bet that more people who are employed have attended college now than ever before as well. I don't think it's so much of a indictment on the education system in this country but merely the trend that more people are going to college today than in the past. That naturally would mean that more employed and unemployed people are going to have attended college than in the past. Not really all that shocking if you ask me.

A J.D. degree which has been long considered a "legitimate" degree is now worthless because of the economy and the fact the schools are failing to give students the skills needed to immediately start working at a high level without more training by their employers.

But this has always been true. A degree never guaranteed you a job, it merely allowed you to put something on your resume that might make you stand out from the crowd. At most having a degree might get you an interview, but it's that interview that will determine if you get the job or not. I've never had a single job that didn't require on the job training.

I have been told straight up that my resume was not as good as some of the people they turned down, but I was given the job because I aced the interview. In fact at SWA, your personality is more important to them than your work experience. They are looking for people that work hard and play harder. They are looking for people that have a positive attitude about their jobs. They are looking for people who are not as interested in getting a paycheck, as they are about contributing to the company. I got the job at SWA because I knew a few of the people that worked there already and they vouched for me that I would fit into the culture here at SWA, not because I was the best programmer or brightest person in the world.

[MaineDolFan]

Well, first, I'm not a new grad.  I've had my nursing license for a long time.  So I am not sure which portion of "luck" comes into play, however I am sure it's in there somewhere.  The economy wasn't completely in the toilet when I graduated with my BSRN, but it was close.

Nursing - the actually schooling is hard.  I know, for me, math and science do not come easily.  Math & science are the base of everything you do during your undergraduate studies.  I have to work very hard to not only learn anything in those fields, but to retain what I've learned.  So many of the courses continue to something where it's applied the following semester. I know I'm not alone in my struggles in math & science, so one theory centers around this portion of study:

Younger students come into nursing programs woefully under prepared for what they will experience / what is expected of them in this area.  For me, I was an older student (nursing was my third degree).  I'm not sure the public high school system adequately prepares these kids (base knowledge) for what they need to know in college (1) and they don't have the maturity to really roll up their sleeves and find the resources to make sure they obtain the knowledge (2).

In order to remain a nursing student or a nursing candidate (basically means you're on the waiting list) at my old school - you need to maintain an overall 2.67 GPA in all science classes (which basically translates to a B-).  Additionally, classes which have a "sequel"  (Anatomy I&II, example) - you can't take II unless you pass I with at least a 2.50, regardless of what your overall science GPA is.  I think I mentioned this in another thread once before, I generally averaged around a 3.00 in my sciences but had to retake one of my sciences after passing it, barely, with a 2.49. 

So say you're taking, whatever, 15 credit hours in the fall.  Six of them are lecture science, two lab, the rest are...whatever.  Something else.  You're pulling a 3.58 GPA overall, crushing it in your lab, doing really well in one science but one science class -- just one -- is threatening to derail your entire potential nursing program.  You're currently at a 2.17 at organic chem and have little to no hope to climb to a 2.50, much less the 2.64 that you need to round your entire science GPA to 2.67. 

You're allowed one semester to correct it (academic probation).  If you don't, you're dropped from the program due to the staggering amount of people waiting to get in (many of whom won't fare any better than you did). 

I started my freshmen year with over 400 people (candidates and full students).  We graduated under 100 from the nursing school.  There are two other colleges in my general area, both also graduated well under 100.

I once argued with my advisor, taking the stance the science requirements were far too harsh and were driving away perfectly good candidates from a field of work where for every ten nursing who retire we are only graduating one replacement.  The nursing core requirement was 2.60 (actual nursing classes), lower than science requirements.  Her stance was the basis of passing the boards was built in science and strength of science knowledge would be critical in passing the boards -- what good would a nursing degree be if you don't become licensed? 

I simply don't agree, especially once I obtained my MSN.  MSN schooling is far more advanced and built in modern - advanced thinking.  So much of the educational process of "building a nurse" is outdated and clinging from a bygone era.  Meanwhile our profession has lost Lord knows how many potential great nurses to another field because they could only muster a 2.50 in organic chem (which is a ball buster of a class, by the way), however excelled in so many other areas.

Nursing school is very hard to get into.  The waiting list is long - for any school.  Once in, it's hard to stay in.  The people educating our young nurses are trying the "let's break them first" way of thinking...and I don't agree.

Meanwhile, the hospital where I work per diem hours has had upwards of 10:1 patient to nurse assignments at times due to job postings they aren't able to fill with anyone other than per diems and traveling nursing (both counter productive, cost wise).

[badger6]

Not true at all.

Let me ask you this:  It's late at night and you're walking.  No one is around.  You suddenly feel pain everywhere, however more in your left arm and radiating to your chest.  You can't move, you can't communicate and you aren't breathing well.  Would you rather the following be the best person be the next one to come across you:

1:  A very hard worker, however with their GED, or;
2:  Me?

See, I've been "programmed" as well.  My "programming" was in the form of undergraduate studies, some of which I tend to agree was eye rolling to an outsider point of view who has a closed mind about the importance of building critical thinking.  I'm not sure why I was allowed to take acting.  Yes, acting.  I fluffed out a few courses on my way to my first B.A.  However the first B.A. built the foundation to my bachelor of science - in nursing.  No fluff.  All science, math, nursing.  This degree led to my advancement to my MSN.  Very hard.  I was not reading about Socrates or discussing how large the Shakespeare canon is.

I was being "programmed."

So, I'll ask again.  You're suddenly dying on the sidewalk and you're not sure why.  Help is not a phone call away.  Do you want the forklift operator to happen upon you...or me?

Please do not discount, nor dismiss, the value of education (and the foundation of education).  Mine helps me save lives.

Of course I would rather have a nurse instead of a forklift driver to help me in that situation. I think you missed my point entirely. I never said or or meant that college was useless or unnecessary. But in many fields a college degree is highly overrated and unnecessary. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, architects and countless other professions are examples of useful college. But when companies unnecessarily require a bachelors degree for a basic supervisor or manager position, an IT position, or countless other basic jobs that only need on the job training or a 3-6 month training class, it's totally ridiculous. College does serve a purpose, but contrary to what" the system"  says, for a good majority of the population and employment, it is a sham and not needed. The whole system is structured WRONG and at the end of the day it is only about tuition and making the all mighty dollar. Student loan ponzi scheme that can't be discharged, ha ha.

[bsmooth]

^^^ So you feel like your degree is more legitimate than mine?  I want to make sure I read that right because I don't want to go on a rant based on a misunderstanding.

 If you're tired of hearing people say what I posted, there must be an awful lot of people out there who feel this way and there must be a reason for it.

Because this bs excuse keeps getting thrown out as to why so many college grads are unemployed or underemployed. There are many graduates with degrees that historically led to employment and were considered degrees that were a secure path a Hoodie states.
The reason so many graduates are in this boat has less to do with the choice of degrees as much as it does with the loss of millions of jobs since 2008.
The pundits, especially on the right, keep saying that all these people are getting "worthless" degrees, yet they ignore all the people with "credible" degrees who are out of work too.

[bsmooth]

Of course I would rather have a nurse instead of a forklift driver to help me in that situation. I think you missed my point entirely. I never said or or meant that college was useless or unnecessary. But in many fields a college degree is highly overrated and unnecessary. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, architects and countless other professions are examples of useful college. But when companies unnecessarily require a bachelors degree for a basic supervisor or manager position, an IT position, or countless other basic jobs that only need on the job training or a 3-6 month training class, it's totally ridiculous. College does serve a purpose, but contrary to what" the system"  says, for a good majority of the population and employment, it is a sham and not needed. The whole system is structured WRONG and at the end of the day it is only about tuition and making the all mighty dollar. Student loan ponzi scheme that can't be discharged, ha ha.

But this is because industry is driving this trend. Colleges do not require businesses to only promote people who have degrees to upper management. This trend by businesses has led to higher enrollment as people try and get an extra feather in their cap for advancement.

[badger6]

But this is because industry is driving this trend. Colleges do not require businesses to only promote people who have degrees to upper management. This trend by businesses has led to higher enrollment as people try and get an extra feather in their cap for advancement.

For these jobs that should not require anything near 4 years of extra school, college does nothing more than indoctrinate you into the corporate structure.  You are proving to the master that you are dumb, obedient, and willfully ignorant enough to fall for anything and can not think for yourself. That is what the corporations want, but it already has more of them than it can pay. What they gonna want next ?

As George Carlin said, "They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to do what they are told. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.................

[Pappy13]

For these jobs that should not require anything near 4 years of extra school, college does nothing more than indoctrinate you into the corporate structure.  You are proving to the master that you are dumb, obedient, and willfully ignorant enough to fall for anything and can not think for yourself. That is what the corporations want, but it already has more of them than it can pay. What they gonna want next ?

And I thought I was cynical. You might need to find a new employer if that's what you believe about your current one. I certainly don't share your opinion and I've worked for several large corporations. Sprint. MCI. Verizon. GMAC. Southwest Airlines. And with SWA at least it's the EXACT opposite. They WANT people with opinions. They encourage you to speak up and have a healthy discourse. They encourage you to be empowered, to fight through red tape to get things done. To ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. To make changes where changes are needed. To think outside the box and come up with unique solutions. This is a part of their culture and it's FANTASTIC. Maybe I've just been lucky.

As George Carlin said, "They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to do what they are told. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.................

Ah well if Carlin says it, then it must be true because he wouldn't say something, ya know, just to get a laugh out of it.

[bsmooth]

For these jobs that should not require anything near 4 years of extra school, college does nothing more than indoctrinate you into the corporate structure.  You are proving to the master that you are dumb, obedient, and willfully ignorant enough to fall for anything and can not think for yourself. That is what the corporations want, but it already has more of them than it can pay. What they gonna want next ?

As George Carlin said, "They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to do what they are told. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.................

Why yes, corporations and businesses want people to be leaders who have a better understanding of micro and macro-economics, business, etc. For it is this knowledge that could help them understand and improve the company in the future. Working a productions line for 10 years does not allow you to understand the fundamentals of economics or global factors. There is a reason the leaders of industry rarely come from the assembly line.

[MaineDolFan]

For these jobs that should not require anything near 4 years of extra school, college does nothing more than indoctrinate you into the corporate structure.  You are proving to the master that you are dumb, obedient, and willfully ignorant enough to fall for anything and can not think for yourself. That is what the corporations want, but it already has more of them than it can pay. What they gonna want next ?

As George Carlin said, "They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to do what they are told. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.................

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, badger - but I think this needs to be said...this is also coming from a guy who was complaining about having to work harder because the older guys stand around while the young "horses" do the work.

It's not that educated people are "programmed" - it's you have become (1) very narrow minded and (2) very judgmental towards anyone who has something you don't.  You said it yourself earlier in the thread about people standing around with clip boards but they don't know anything:

These people literally do noting for half the day and don't do a good job the other half of the day.

I ran into a lot of this while I was in the military.  I had a lot of guys who had a thing about being told what to do.  They didn't like me because of the rank on my sleeve (prior to being moved to CID) and then didn't like me for obvious reasons after that.  I wasn't someone who earned my rank, I was just someone who "must have gotten lucky and rubbed up against a wall and had those stripes stick."  Yet these were the same guys who, five years later, were still sitting at E-3 with no shot at being promoted...for several reasons.  It was never their fault.  It was always someone else's.  They always had better ideas of what "they would do if they ran this place" - all the while having no idea of what it really took to run a platoon, squad or a unit.

Fact is, you aren't really privy to what those people did in school because you didn't do it.  I've heard the exact same statements before - it's general "out of sight, out of mind" - and, fact is, you don't know what else those folks are doing when you don't see them, because you don't know what else their job entails.

Everyone thinks they can hit a Justin Verlander fastball if "just given the chance."  They just can't.  Not without the proper tools.  My opinion on your opinion?  It's a very narrow minded way of thinking.  You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding people who "have that piece of paper that you don't have."  Why don't you remove the chip, find something you have an interest in and obtain training and / education in the field rather than trying to tell people who did spend time doing so they are, basically, "the walking dead, just doing what the man tells them to do?"  From the sounds of your previous rants about your job, it doesn't sound as though it's Nirvana there either.

[badger6]

And I thought I was cynical. You might need to find a new employer if that's what you believe about your current one. I certainly don't share your opinion and I've worked for several large corporations. Sprint. MCI. Verizon. GMAC. Southwest Airlines. And with SWA at least it's the EXACT opposite. They WANT people with opinions. They encourage you to speak up and have a healthy discourse. They encourage you to be empowered, to fight through red tape to get things done. To ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. To make changes where changes are needed. To think outside the box and come up with unique solutions. This is a part of their culture and it's FANTASTIC. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Cynical, me ? Maybe or maybe not. Really doesn't bother me and rarely ever think about it much, just my opinion on the topic in this thread. When I first entered the workforce 22 years ago I bought into all that bullshit they try to sell you. You know, teamwork, determination, problem solving, and so on. But the older I get the more I see that it's a rigged game and none of that shit will get you anywhere. Not only do I think that of my current employer, I think that of most of my past employers also. So therefore in my opinion finding a new employer will not do much good. But hey, I guess that I could get lucky like you. 

Ah well if Carlin says it, then it must be true because he wouldn't say something, ya know, just to get a laugh out of it.

I'm fairly sure that most of his more recent stuff was more on the serious side rather than the funny side.