NFL QB tiers (from Hartline thread)

[Spider-Dan]

Split, by request.

That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. There's no law that says the top tier QBs must be limited to just three names. Stafford doesn't need to be ranked ahead of thise three guys to be top tier. That's a nonsense argument. He can be behind them and STILL be top tier.

Do you know what a "tier" is?

When you have a group of players who are very close to each other, and can arguably be in varying order, that's a tier.  Stafford is unquestionably behind Brees/Brady/Rodgers, but arguably better or worse than Rivers/Big Ben/Romo (all of whom have been much more consistent).

Schaub, Rivers, and Romo have ALL been considered top tier at some point in their career, even if you disagree with it.

Rivers is a maybe.  The rest are not even close.  Unless you are rated within the top tier (by definition: better than at least one of them), you aren't in it.  The top tier was Brady and Peyton for a long time; Brees and Rodgers broke in with sustained stellar play.  There's no way anyone has ever rated Schaub ahead of Brady or Manning, unless you're counting the years in which they were out for the season (and were not in any tier).

Oddly, you keep mentioning Manning, by which you must mean Eli, because Peyton's numbers were already declining before he missed an entire year. You know it's been 8 years since he had more than 33 TDs in a season right?

You know that the last time Peyton Manning threw a pass in the NFL, he was the reigning NFL MVP (two times running), right?

Maybe the problem is that you only look at stats.

So if you're counting Peyton as still elite and top tier, there's no way you can not include Stafford. It's not a "career award." It's how good are you now?

I didn't count Peyton now because I don't know how he will recover from injury.  However, if he does come back and perform at an MVP-level, he'll be right back in the top tier... because unlike Stafford, he's had more than one good season.

Does consistency matter at all in your world?  Or does your top tier of NFL QBs change based on who played the best last week?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So if you're counting Peyton as still elite and top tier, there's no way you can not include Stafford. It's not a "career award." It's how good are you now?

I am not sure I agree with said position. 

Dan Marino qualifies as an elite top tier QB.  (Yes, Pappy you can quote me on that).   However, I doubt he would do much behind center if choose to come out of retirement. 

When asking about elite top tier, it really can mean multiple things, each equally valid.

a) Who has had an elite (HOF worthy) career.  (Yes, to Manning)

b) Who had an elite (Pro-bowl worthy) season last season .  (No, to Manning)

c) Who do you think will have an elite (pro-bowl worthy) season this upcoming season.  (Maybe to Manning, but then again, maybe to everyone, I think most of us are projecting Brees and Brady to have better seasons than Sanchez and Moore, but it is still a guess)

d) Who do you think will have an elite (HOF worthy) career.  For everyone not listed in subjection A is much more of a speculation than subjection C. 

[BigDaddyFin]

I'd actually be willing to go on a limb and state that 5000 yards and 35+ TD's is going to be commonplace the way teams throw the ball now. 

I will offer my definition of top-tier quarterback as well.  Ask yourself the following:  Are you surprised when the guy needs a first down at the end of a game and can't get it?

There are only 3 guys in the NFL I can say that about.  Peyton Manning, Rodgers, and Drew Brees.  There are guys that are really close to that, Tom Brady and Eli Manning, but I've seen them appear human too many times to put them with the other two, so that's group 1 and 1a.

Then you have guys who are above average who they hype the shit out of, but they're really not anything more than above average.  Guys like Schaub, Romo, Philip Rivers, Carson Palmer is or was probably at this level.  They have all the tools, they play really well, but they've got a major flaw (injury prone, rattles easily, throws off back foot, has entire games where he's a dipshit with the ball etc.)  This is tier 2

Then you pretty much have everybody else. 

[Spider-Dan]

When it comes to tiers, the hardest QB to place is Eli.  He has been completely mediocre in the regular season and has never been anywhere near an NFL MVP award.  But he has had two very good postseasons that both resulted in titles.

The closest comparison I could make would be Troy Aikman, but I feel like Aikman had higher lows and lower highs.  Even so, no one was going to mistake Aikman for Elway or Marino.

[MikeO]

Schaub and Stafford are NOT Top Tier QB's. They are good players. They MIGHT be Top Tier QB's someday. But its foolish to call them top tier QB's as of today. Totally foolish. This is almost as silly as the debate last year when someone proclaimed Jerome Simpson to be an "elite WR." Schaub and Stafford are no where near Top Tier QB's. Hell, you gotta win 1 playoff game before you are considered Top Tier!

Schaub is a nice player but he hasn't even shown potential or flashes of ever being a Top Tier QB.  Stafford has had 1 good year in his life.

The ONLY Top Tier QB's are (in no special order) Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Peyton (if healthy)/Eli

And as Spider said Eli is tough. If you want to keep him out, fine I wouldn't argue too hard with that. I have him as a Top Tier QB but that could go either way I do admit.

There isn't anyone else in the discussion. No Big Ben/Rivers/ Romo....and damn sure Stafford and Schaub aren't in the discussion!!

[BigDaddyFin]

^^^ Two rings and two last minute Superbowl touchdown drives tell me he belongs in that teir.

[Pappy13]

^^You talking about Eli or Big Ben? I think I'd have to put Big Ben in there too. He's not quite as flashy as the other guys, but he's a gamer.

[Phishfan]

I have to speak up now. Big Ben does not belong in the top tier. He is a solid QB but not top tier.

[Pappy13]

^^So then if the few of us can't agree on what a "top tier" QB is, then I think the original point that was made is validated. What one person thinks is top tier, someone else disagrees with.

[Spider-Dan]

I believe you're overthinking it.

When you say that Big Ben is top tier, whom (out of Brees/Brady/Rodgers) are you ranking him above?  If we all agree that Ben is below those three, then he's not in the same tier.  That's the point of a tier: a clear separation between one group of players and another.

[Pappy13]

I believe you're overthinking it.

When you say that Big Ben is top tier, whom (out of Brees/Brady/Rodgers) are you ranking him above?  If we all agree that Ben is below those three, then he's not in the same tier.  That's the point of a tier: a clear separation between one group of players and another.

I'm not ranking him above or below any of them, I'm putting all of them into the same tier. You stated that the definition of a tier was "A group of players that are very close..." I don't have to believe that they are all equal to believe they belong in the same tier, only that they are very close and that arguably any could be rated higher than one of the others in the tier. I believe that definition fits for Ben. I believe you are overthinking it because I don't believe there is a clear seperation between Brees/Brady/Rodgers and Big Ben or Eli. They have all achieved a similar level of success in my view. I agree with you however that Stafford and Schaub have not matched that level....yet.

[Spider-Dan]

My point is that Ben really isn't arguably better than any of those three, which is why he's not in the same tier.  That is to say, you can shuffle around Brady/Brees/Rodgers (putting them in any order) and it's a strong and defensible argument; all three are NFL MVP frontrunners and have a legitimate claim to best QB in the NFL.  The idea that someone would say that Ben is the best QB in the NFL today is laughable.  That's the clear separation between those three and him.

Maybe the second tier should really be Eli and Ben, with the third tier being Vick, Rivers, Stafford, and the rest... I don't know.  But there's absolutely no way any reasonable person believes that Ben is the best QB in the NFL, and (IMO) the top tier is comprised exclusively of QBs who can claim that mantle.

[MikeO]

^^So then if the few of us can't agree on what a "top tier" QB is, then I think the original point that was made is validated. What one person thinks is top tier, someone else disagrees with.

Yes and no (lol).  There can be a "wrong" answer. If someone put Matt Moore into the "top tier" and started claiming that  they would be laughed at and wrong. Just like when someone here last year said Jerome Simpson is an Elite WR. That is just flat out wrong.

If you want to debate whether Big Ben is borderline Top Tier, that is OK I guess. I don't think he is but at least you can back it up with 2 super bowl rings and some numbers and make a case. When someone claims Schaub and Stafford are "top tier" that is just flat out incorrect and wrong. They don't have a playoff win between them and the number of good seasons both have had combine you can count on one hand. They aren't Top Tier QB's currently and to claim such is silly.

[Pappy13]

The idea that someone would say that Ben is the best QB in the NFL today is laughable.

I would agree today but only because Brees and Rodgers are coming off their best years and Ben hasn't been healthy lately. Only a year or 2 ago I would have disagreed with you and I would have said that it was defensible that Ben was better than either Rodgers or Brees at that time. I also can't say that next year I won't think that Ben is the best QB in the NFL again if he's healthy and those other 3 don't have the years they had last year. I'm more of a "What's his top level of play" type of guy when it comes to comparing them rather than a "Who's playing at the top level at this minute" type of guy because that changes from game to game and year to year. I think Ben's top play is very similar to any of the other guys we have mentioned, he just hasn't played that way lately some of which is due to injuries. I still think he has it in him though.

[Pappy13]

Yes and no (lol).  There can be a "wrong" answer.

That doesn't invalidate the theory that "top tier" is subjective. That just proves that there are clearly indefensible positions, it doesn't make ALL positions indefensible.