Replacement Refs [merged x2]

[Fins4ever]

^^ This is WELL after the play had already been ruled a TD and this picture is a bit misleading because Tate's arm is NOT around Jennings neck, his left arm is actually under Jennings arm and his right arm is over Jennings arm, both hands are on the ball at this point, so Jennings body is not between Tate and the ball, his arm and shoulder is, it just doesn't look like that from the picture. If the defensive player rips the ball out of the offensive players hand AFTER the play is over, that doesn't make it an INT.
Ok, but they stated that pass interference should have been the correct call, not that it was not a simultaneous catch. I was not reviewing the play for a pass interference call and honestly, I think this is a way to save face by the NFL, because I didn't see anything on the replay that made me immediately think it was offensive pass interference. There's always a lot of pushing and shoving on those types of plays and to expect an offensive pass interference call on that is stretching it in my opinion. I don't believe the real refs would have called that and most likely THEY would have called a TD as well.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I think you need to go back and look at the replay again. It was clearly OPI and GB made the catch.

[AZ Fins Fan 55]

Yeah, they showed up in week 2 for damage control, I believe.

They were there opening weekend as well. I saw him on the sidelines in the AZ/Sea contest. My buddy and I were trying to figure out who he was.

[Phishfan]

Wait one second here:

the rule says that simultaneous possesion belongs to the offense, so maybe the call was correct after all.     

Not simultaneous posession, simultaneous catching. One can catch a ball five minutes before someone else puts their hands on it but once they both have their hands on it they have simultaneous posession.

[dolphins4life]

The NFL has issued a statement that upholds the ruling, so I guess they got this call correct.

[Spider-Dan]

You can't even see the ball in these pictures until the last one which is well after the play had been called so I'm not quite sure how you can say without question that there is no version of this play where Jennings's torso is not between Tate and the ball. How do you know where the ball is if you can't see it?

Even the most basic understanding of human physiology (when combined with the series of photos) tells you where the ball ISN'T.

For example, in this picture:



If the ball is between Jennings torso and Tate (or even behind/to the right of Jennings), then why is Tate reaching past where the ball would be in said scenario, and instead reaching at exactly the angle that he would need to if the ball were on the other side of Jennings' torso?

And in said scenario, how would Jennings proceed from having no hands on the ball (with the ball presumably being pressed against Tate's gut) to rolling over with the ball cradled in his arms, as displayed here:



Looks pretty straightforward to me.

[AZ Fins Fan 55]

The NFL has issued a statement that upholds the ruling, so I guess they got this call correct.

Of course they did....they are trying to save face, that does not mean it was actually correct. It was a shit call that actually cost a team a win. Bottom line, these fake zebras have to go........

[mecadonzilla]

There was no point in time Tate had possession of the ball, so I don't know how it was ruled simultaneous. 

The NFL is in CYA mode.

[Pappy13]

Pappy you are flat out wrong.

Page 47 http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf

I don't think I am. Seems like the key portions are page 39 and Page 5.

Page 39. Completed or Intercepted pass. Item 5 - Simultaneous catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

So the question then is when do you have "control" of an intercepted ball?

Page 5. Player Possession. Item 2: Possession of loose ball: To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet or any other part of his body, other than his hands, completely on the ground inbounds, and maintain control of the ball long enough to perform any act common to the game. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, there is no possession.

The way I interpret that therefore is that you have not gained "control" of the ball until you hit the ground with both feet and perform any act common to the game, therefore you do not have to make contact with the ball at the exact same moment that the opponent does, only that you must come down with it at the same time and maintain possession. In reviewing of the play I feel that both players have "control" of the ball when they hit the ground, therefore it is a simultaneous catch which then goes to the offensive player. I'm assuming I'm reading it correctly since the NFL has already said that it was a simultaneous catch, but the pass interference call would have superceded it.

[Pappy13]

Even the most basic understanding of human physiology (when combined with the series of photos) tells you where the ball ISN'T.

Why did you choose the 2nd picture of your set? The first picture is CLEARLY closer to the time when they first touched the ground which is when a simultaneous catch would be ruled. Even your first picture is AFTER the point at which they touched the ground and it's not clear in any way shape or form where the ball is at the time of that picture. I'm referring to the below image.

[Pappy13]

I think you need to go back and look at the replay again. It was clearly OPI and GB made the catch.

I did and I see the OPI now. I missed it the first time because it's well before the ball gets there and I was only looking for OPI once both players go up for the ball. The OPI wasn't even against Jennings, like I thought was being said, it was against another player.

I still haven't seen anything that makes me think it wasn't a simultaneous catch however which would go to the offensive player.

The zebras missed the OPI, I think they got the CATCH/INTERCEPTION call right.

[suck for luck]

LOL It wasn't a "loose ball".  You're using a rule that doesn't apply. But hey, knock yourself out and feel content in the knowledge that you're smarter than 99% of the human race including the players that actually play the game.  

[Pappy13]

LOL It wasn't a "loose ball".  You're using a rule doesn't apply. But hey, knock yourself out and feel content in the knowledge that you're smarter than 99% of the human race including the players that actually play the game.  

The very description says "interception". A thrown ball IS a loose ball. Anyone can control a thrown ball. If it's controlled by the offensive player it's a catch, if it's controlled by a defensive player it's an interception, if it's not controlled by either, it's an incomplete pass.

Ronnie Lott agrees with me.

[Phishfan]

I'm assuming I'm reading it correctly since the NFL has already said that it was a simultaneous catch,

People keep saying this but that isn't even close to what the NFL said if you read and study the statement. They said, "When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown...Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review."

The NFL went to great lengths to avoid specifically saying they thought it was a simultaneous catch. Their only admission is they do ot think the video is enough to overturn that ruling (and put me in the camp that disagrees).

[suck for luck]

I was totally wrong about the loose ball thing. My apologies Pappy.

However, you're still wrong on the call. 

[mecadonzilla]

 http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/story/_/id/8422575/web-explodes-replacement-refs-call-packers
Here's some great tweets that followed the game last night.
Our very own Brian Hartline gave me a good laugh.  


Brian Hartline @brianhartline

I had to check my TV Guide bc for a sec I thought I was watching Punk'd... I was just waiting for Ashton to pop out... Smdh