Unions: Your point of view

[bsmooth]

I have no issue with most private unions as that is between the workers and the companies. They have to figure out how to work together or get hit by the global competition.
I have a big issue with many of the public unions, especially since they seem to breed more laziness and incompetence than they do excellence.

[Fins4ever]

I have no issue with most private unions as that is between the workers and the companies. They have to figure out how to work together or get hit by the global competition.
I have a big issue with many of the public unions, especially since they seem to breed more laziness and incompetence than they do excellence.

I can agree with that. That is unless you are G.M. and get big bailouts. Anyone want to buy my shares? 

[Phishfan]

Face it, companies want to pay employees as little as possible. If they could pay Chinese wages in the US they would.

While I agree that the gap in pay is very large, facts are against you here. I cannot think of a single large company (you and I both know we are not discussing small companies here) that starts employees at minimum wage. If they were willing to pay as little as possible that would be the starting point. Competition does not allow for them to do so. In order to get employees of a certain calibur, they pay more than that.

[Fins4ever]

While I agree that the gap in pay is very large, facts are against you here. I cannot think of a single large company (you and I both know we are not discussing small companies here) that starts employees at minimum wage. If they were willing to pay as little as possible that would be the starting point. Competition does not allow for them to do so. In order to get employees of a certain calibur, they pay more than that.

The wage gap is a tricky issue. Just part of the equation is cost of living of country, taxes, tariffs.... I have a good friend who is a tennis pro and has taught all over the world, including Indonesia. We ended up buying the remaining inventory of a line of shirts from Mambo. Granted, we got the shirts very reasonable, but was taxed to death bringing them in through Customs. He told me the textile industry was huge in Indonesia and the people made next to nothing for wages. Homes costs were also very low. How does the U.S. compete with that?

Here are the shirts...very cool!

 http://www.rubberchickenforthesoul.com/mamboloud.html

[Dave Gray]

Unions are a necessity.  They are part of the balance.  Sure, there is corruption, just like in any organization of people.  But, without them, we end up getting paid in money that can only be spent at the company store and once you quit, your money is no good anymore.  This stuff actually happened, which was creating indentured servants.  Perhaps we wouldn't go back to that level, although it certainly is possible, but there has to be a constant struggle for things like working conditions, healthy working environments, etc.

[Phishfan]

^^^ Dave you are preaching to the choir. I grew up where that happened, it was my family that was forced to work in those conditions. If you honestly think unions are necessary now because of that you are mistaken. They were necessary but the government has passed laws against that now. It cannot happen with or without unions.

[Dave Gray]

And while there may now be laws preventing those practices, the weight and lobbying power of the unions has to stand up to the weight and lobbying power of big business, in order to get those kinds of laws passed.

[Spider-Dan]

^^^ Dave you are preaching to the choir. I grew up where that happened, it was my family that was forced to work in those conditions. If you honestly think unions are necessary now because of that you are mistaken. They were necessary but the government has passed laws against that now. It cannot happen with or without unions.

When you say that the government has passed laws against those things, do you mean laws like those that allow for unions to participate in collective bargaining?  You know, the laws that Republicans are striking from the books as fast as they can?

What the "unions are no longer needed" crowd seems to be missing is that when the unions have all been eliminated, there will be no political entity funneling money into the pockets of politicians on behalf of labor... only on behalf on corporations.  And as you should have seen recently, when corporatist politicians are elected into office, it is a trivial matter for them to simply rewrite the laws and undo all of the protections that unions have fought for.  (see: "right-to-work" states)

I find no small amount of irony in the fact that people are insisting that the union battles have already been permanently won at the exact same time that the right is systematically dismantling the gains from those battles.

[badger6]

While I agree that the gap in pay is very large, facts are against you here. I cannot think of a single large company (you and I both know we are not discussing small companies here) that starts employees at minimum wage. If they were willing to pay as little as possible that would be the starting point. Competition does not allow for them to do so. In order to get employees of a certain calibur, they pay more than that.

I agree with you 100%. Like I said, if they could get away with it, they would pay as little as possible. Due to the reasons you stated, they can't easily get away with it. But to go one step further. Minimum wage isn't even worth discussing @ $15K a year before taxes.  In my area most companies starting pay is between $9-10/hr. So @ $9.50/hr the monthly pay before taxes would be approx. $1,650. Lets say net is 75% after taxes, insurance, and deductions. That leaves $1,237 a month to live on. So while the company is technically paying what looks like a good wage compared to minimum wage. The reality is that $1,200 a month is pretty much poverty level. There is so much of a gap in pay between the blue collar workers who are the backbone of the company and white collar and corporate workers who usually don't do much of anything.  Their should be a way that the government could offer incentives to companies for paying higher wages.

[el diablo]

As long as its cheaper to manufacture outside of the U.S., we're fighting a losing battle. Global competition in retail is a good thing. Global competition for jobs, is a bad thing. That's the main reason why we are losing our middle class.