Unions: Your point of view

[Fins4ever]

Thought I would throw this out there after discussing the replacement refs on another thread. Here is my take...

Not normally in favor of unions. As I said in the other thread, they are inflationary and are the cause of unsustainable "entitlements and pensions". IMO, their existence is no longer needed and serves as a detriment to most business models, esp. in the public sector. 

Union policies are solely based on seniority, including pay, promotion and reinstatement rights. Currently, a major holdup with the Chicago teachers is they are against using performance tests in evaluating teachers. Is that a good thing?

Unions also promote the "not my job" thinking and try to use their "cohesive power" to break or cripple a company or cause. Remember the air traffic controllers??? How about the teachers as I mentioned above?

I have worked along side union members and my experience is most will not do 1 single thing for the company outside a strict job description and will be the 1st to complain. My best friend was a quality engineer for G.M. in Kalamazoo, MI. for years and the joke among the employees were that G.M. stood for Generous Motors. Any prescription...2 bucks. No co-pay on doctor visits. 500 max out of pocket, free dental and vision, Matching 401K, pension plan and average pay of 25.00 an hour. Did I mention this was in the early to mid 80's???

Ok, go ahead...fire away. lol All in fun!

[Pappy13]

Agreed on just about everything. At one time unions filled a vital role in the workplace in the US and maybe in a few places they still fill that role, but everywhere that I have been associated with lately unions have caused more issues then they have solved. In fact I have known several people who were in unions that wished they didn't have to be in the union because of the problems it caused. They were forced to go on strike even though they didn't want to. Many long time union members are beyond reproach even though they are not top performers etc.

[Phishfan]

Coming from the part of the country I do I respect the place unions have in American history. That said, we are not in that same place anymore and union have run their course I am afraid.

[bsfins]

My position has changed a bit....I don't see "unions" as a black or white issue...

I feel in the world today,a union needs to have a narrow focus,and National large unions are dinosaurs of our past...

A bus driver that can't be fired,even though he's got 2 DWI,and is still allowed to drive a bus....Makes me hate unions...

I admit,I've only had limited experiences with unions...

I feel when a union is limited to one place,one factory,it can be a good thing...I feel at a certain point/size the union becomes more about "the Union" than the workers/profession...

My example to small local union would be,I think having one Wal-mart store being a union because of it being located in a bad area,they don't want to be open 24 hours,etc,etc,etc...Isn't the bad thing....

I don't think all the Wal-mart stores should be Union,and there shouldn't be a national Wal-mart union...I think it's a bad thing...

Union Idea good,but reality bad in most cases...

[CF DolFan]

The problems with unions is that they are run by people. They start out as a great idea and then people start abusing them and screw everything up. If we could take the human agenda out of it then everything would be fine.

[masterfins]

I agree with Lil B, it's not a black and white issue.  Some unions are good, some are terrible.  It's a lot about the people that are heading the unions.  Also, after many years of being in a union AND working for a particular company, people become entrenched in their views, and aren't willing to make changes, but this happens in non-union professions too.

[Fins4ever]

All good points.

Don't be naive. The unions still have power and powerful lobbyist. Can you believe they tried to sue Boeing and keep them from opening up a new production plant in South Carolina?  The union objected because S.C. is a right to work state, meaning you are not required to join or pay dues to the union as a condition of employment. Unreal!

I will even go as far to say unions "can be downright evil". Do you think the timing of the teachers going on strike on the 1st day of school was an accident?? Ditto for the refs in the NFL. The unions figured they had a gun to the heads of the NFL and the Mayor of Chicago.

As we see, Goodell stood his ground and Mayor Emanuel (former Chief of Staff for Obama) called them disgraceful for what they are doing to our children.   

[Fau Teixeira]

The refs are locked out. They aren't on strike.

[Spider-Dan]

I think unions are an important and necessary component in counterbalancing the corporate overreach that the U.S. is sliding into.

It would be trivial for me to start listing off a bunch of examples of corporate management sticking it to the average workers; there's the economic stuff like H1-B visa abuse, or the wanton disregard of safety regulations that lead to dozens of coal miners dying.

When unions were strong, America had a broad and sturdy middle class.  In the post-Reagan era, as unions have been slowly and steadily dismantled, the nation has stratified; the middle class is steadily shrinking and the richest few are becoming richer and fewer.

I find the idea that "we no longer need unions any more" just as silly as if I were to say that we've already established that people have freedom of speech, so we really don't need that First Amendment.  Labor vs. management is not a single battle that is won by one side, then considered complete.  The same companies that you all are happy to claim have "learned their lesson" and "no longer need unions to keep them in check"... look how they act in countries like China where they have no such impediments.

[badger6]

I think unions are an important and necessary component in counterbalancing the corporate overreach that the U.S. is sliding into.

It would be trivial for me to start listing off a bunch of examples of corporate management sticking it to the average workers; there's the economic stuff like H1-B visa abuse, or the wanton disregard of safety regulations that lead to dozens of coal miners dying.

When unions were strong, America had a broad and sturdy middle class.  In the post-Reagan era, as unions have been slowly and steadily dismantled, the nation has stratified; the middle class is steadily shrinking and the richest few are becoming richer and fewer.

I find the idea that "we no longer need unions any more" just as silly as if I were to say that we've already established that people have freedom of speech, so we really don't need that First Amendment.  Labor vs. management is not a single battle that is won by one side, then considered complete.  The same companies that you all are happy to claim have "learned their lesson" and "no longer need unions to keep them in check"... look how they act in countries like China where they have no such impediments.

Damn, for once I agree with spider. Unions have indeed been taken over and corrupted for the most part. However, these days hourly workers are paid barely a living wage while doing mostly all the work that keeps the company moving. While corporate officers and management live large with big salaries and bonuses while doing little next to nothing except raiding the coffers of the company. Unions should be available in every state and every company. In fact I think that a union rep should be required by federal law to visit large companies every year once or twice to let employees decide if they want to unionize. Face it, companies want to pay employees as little as possible. If they could pay Chinese wages in the US they would. The government should give some kind of incentives for paying employees more. Maybe for every dollar over minimum wage that they pay employee x, they get $1.01 in tax breaks or something like that.

[Fins4ever]

I think unions are an important and necessary component in counterbalancing the corporate overreach that the U.S. is sliding into.


That goes against every inkling that the Republic Free Enterprise System the United States stands for. Sorry! If the government would get out of the way, it would work perfectly. The idea is if you feel you are not getting compensated fairly at one place of business, you are welcome to leave and get a higher paying job and the system will equal out through supply and demand among other factors.

Your quote... I think unions are an important and necessary component in counterbalancing the corporate overreach that the U.S. is sliding into.

My response....Huh? What does counterbalancing corporate overreach mean'? I think you are talking about unions and don't even realize it. Which union do you belong to??

In essence, I think you might feel different if you lived in Chicago and had a child in the school system.

[Fau Teixeira]

I don't think you understand the free market system as well as you think. Unions are a core part of any free market. Just like company owners have the right in a free market to hire and fire. So do workers have the right to organize and leverage collective bargaining. Government has nothing to do with it.

I believe the system without unions you're actually thinking about is a form of corporatist fashism.

[Spider-Dan]

I think unions are an important and necessary component in counterbalancing the corporate overreach that the U.S. is sliding into.

That goes against every inkling that the Republic Free Enterprise System the United States stands for. Sorry! If the government would get out of the way, it would work perfectly. The idea is if you feel you are not getting compensated fairly at one place of business, you are welcome to leave and get a higher paying job and the system will equal out through supply and demand among other factors.

We already tried that during the Industrial Revolution.  I doubt many would agree that the experience of American workers in that era is the system "working perfectly."

I find it interesting that you said earlier that unions are "no longer needed."  If what you just said is true, and counterbalancing corporate power is "against every inkling that the Republic Free Enterprise System the United States stands for," then aren't you saying that unions were never needed?  That they have done nothing but ruin the system that would have worked perfectly otherwise?

My response....Huh? What does counterbalancing corporate overreach mean'?

I gave examples in the very next sentence: H-1B visa abuse and disregard for worker safety, among many other things.

Which union do you belong to??

I don't.  Which company are you a manager for?

In essence, I think you might feel different if you lived in Chicago and had a child in the school system.

Am I to take this to mean that you base your opinions solely on how it affects you personally?  Because I don't.

I could insert some quip here about your opinion of unions if a loved one had died in a refinery explosion at a site with hundreds of safety violations, but is it even necessary?

[Fins4ever]

  Which company are you a manager for?

I am an entrepreneur with a couple of businesses that, built up and sold. Also have a few patents. For what that is worth, not a big deal.

Spider, the main thing is we both wish the best for this country. Admittingly, I am mostly conservative. I have a budget, stick to it and have a reserve. I invest well and do no live beyond my means. Can you say the same for this country? Do you honestly believe Obama has a plan to bring back prosperity and power this country needs to lead?

Forget the unions. Are you satisfied with what Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Barrack has done? If so, please tell me why and what they have done to make this country stronger.

By the way, how old are you? I am 53. I am guessing you are 19-25. Right?   

[Spider-Dan]

I am not so naive as to believe that any economic plan Obama may or may not have is particularly important, relative to what Congress is willing to pass.  I do think that had Obama actually been able to pass the initiatives he proposed during his 2008 campaign, we would be significantly better off than we are now.  And I thought that with the historic majorities in Congress he started out with, said initiatives would be fast-tracked to implementation (given the way that GWB's razor-thin majority romped and stomped their way through legislation in his first term).  Unfortunately, I significantly underestimated the... determination... of the GOP after such a sound thrashing.

So ultimately, I have learned my lesson; the GOP will likely be just as obstinate in a second Obama term as they were in the first.  But at least with Obama as president, I can feel confident that the Republican party will need an unachievable 2/3rds majority to pass their crazy legislation, and that the Supreme Court won't become an out-and-out rubber stamp of the most corporatist (and/or theocratic) policies imaginable.  So I pull my lever for Team Blue.

While I was willing to play along with your first irrelevant ad hominem comment about my supposed union membership, I'm not going to continue that trend.  Suffice it to say that you are wrong again; I joined this site in 2003, and I wasn't 10 years old when I signed up.  My age (or union membership) has nothing to do with the discussion, just as your position as management does not make you more (or less) qualified to opine on the value of unions.