More proof that Ireland is an idiot: Lousaka Polite

[Brian Fein]

We had a player that was really good at returning kickoffs.  Possibly close to the best in the league.  Got rid of him too.  But didn't see anyone complain about that move...

[Phishfan]

But didn't see anyone complain about that move...

Men you sure opened a can of worms. They will be coming out of the woodwork.

[Landshark]

We had a player that was really good at returning kickoffs.  Possibly close to the best in the league.  Got rid of him too.  But didn't see anyone complain about that move...

Are you talking about Ted Stone Hands Ginn?  You're right, no complaints out of me.

[bsfins]

Really?   Since you can't seem to figure out a calender....Polite was Cut September 3rd 2011..It's week 5 of the 2012 season...There's no way in hell I'm ever going to be able to explain the forest to you while you stare at a caterpillar sitting on a on leaf while standing in the middle of the forest...

(Dripping in Sarcasm)
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the thread you start in week 7 of the 2013 season whining about Brandon Marshall.I don't know how I'm going to live with my self in anticipation of your spilled milk thread just before we play the Patriots in 2014...
(Dripping in sarcasm)

Your argument of keeping a 29 year old FB,with little to no upside,on the 53 man roster in September 2011.Then keeping him active all 16 games,not dressing someone at a position that we might be thin at,just in case you have 3 or 4th down and short...Telling your brand new Offensive Coordinator,Head coach,and your first round draft pick center...I have zero faith in you guy's to get 1 yard,you can't come up with 10 different plays,with different players to get one single yard...Even though I have 2 other guy's that can play the EXACT SAME position,one I just drafted for the future,and one plays good special teams too..

Makes zero sense to me...That's it...If you can't see the bigger picture...Sorry..I'm done...

[masterfins]

I thought Polite was a decent player, seem to recall hearing earlier this year about a TD he scored for Atlanta.

[tepop84]

We had a player that was really good at returning kickoffs.  Possibly close to the best in the league.  Got rid of him too.  But didn't see anyone complain about that move...

I complained about that.  Absolutely stupid to trade ginn for nothing.

[Spider-Dan]

We had a player that was really good at returning kickoffs.  Possibly close to the best in the league.  Got rid of him too.  But didn't see anyone complain about that move...

The week before the Ginn trade:

I do agree with Brian that trading Ginn would be pointless (he has almost no trade value).  Cam Cameron was right when he said that Ginn was a weapon as a returner; he sucks as a receiver, but I think that as long as he's productive at the return game, he's worth a spot (at least until his contract is up).

He should be returning punts too, though.

Immediately after the trade:

Ginn's TD against Revis was legitimately game-changing.  I'm convinced that it was Ginn's deep threat that allowed MIA to run the ball down the Jets' throat on the final drive.

Keep in mind that that was Henne's first real deep strike in the NFL.  Before that, they had no reason not to "cheat up" and focus entirely on short-game, just as if Noodles were in.

And I do think that Ginn served an important function that now seems to be missing.  Whether he can catch or not, every team had to at least respect the deep strike.  This is a direct and major benefit to a run-first team; we all remember the "Ricky left, Ricky right, Ricky up the middle" days where teams would have 9 in the box on every play.

Right after drafting Gates:

Ginn is a known commodity at KR and served a purpose that we ended up lacking sorely (which is why we got Gates).  We traded Ginn for a 5th so we could spend a 4th to replace him.  [...]

The only expectation I had from Ginn in 2010 was to pull safeties down the field and return kicks.  I think he can do those two things as well as almost any other speed WR in the league.

Emphasis has been added.

I was on the record as wanting to keep Ginn.  Furthermore, Ginn was nowhere remotely close to as good at his specialty as Polite was at his.  Polite led the league in short yardage conversion rate for what, two-three years in a row?  In three seasons, Ginn scored a total of three returns (2 KR, 1 PR), finished 3rd and 5th (and out of top 10) in KR yardage, and never made the top 10 in yards/KR.  Oh, and his first year he finished 9th in yards/PR.

Ginn won the Jets game with his 2 KR TDs, and that was a big deal, but he was never close to the best KR in the league; Hester had that on lockdown, and Cribbs was clearly better, too.  But to this day, I still think Ginn was worth keeping, because he can run safeties down the field and he takes KR off the table as a concern (you don't trade that away for a 5th, particularly when you use that 5th on Nolan Carroll and expect him to return kicks).

[Spider-Dan]

Really?   Since you can't seem to figure out a calender....Polite was Cut September 3rd 2011..It's week 5 of the 2012 season...

I said that it was a horrible idea right when Polite was cut!  Should I have went into the future to grab stats for how horrible Miami would become at short yardage runs after cutting Polite?

Your argument of keeping a 29 year old FB,with little to no upside,on the 53 man roster in September 2011.Then keeping him active all 16 games,not dressing someone at a position that we might be thin at,just in case you have 3 or 4th down and short...

Yes, I think Polite (a known commodity until proven otherwise) would have been more useful than Jason Trusnik, who posted less than 4 tackles in 16 games.

Telling your brand new Offensive Coordinator,Head coach,and your first round draft pick center...I have zero faith in you guy's to get 1 yard,you can't come up with 10 different plays,with different players to get one single yard...Even though I have 2 other guy's that can play the EXACT SAME position,one I just drafted for the future,and one plays good special teams too..

Hey, guess what?  Your brand new offensive coordinator DOES NOT SIGN OR RELEASE PERSONNEL.  That is Jeff Ireland's job.

And guess what else?  Whatever Daboll/Sparano/Ireland thought about their ability to convert short-yardage runs without Polite was obviously wrong, because Miami was literally the worst team in the league at it!

[bsfins]

More irrelevant hindsight posts....Again whining about something that happened prior to the 2011 season,Starting a thread to whine about it in 2012 furthers my point about spilled milk....

Your GM has to make tough decisions about the future,and can't worry about spilled milk...Also know as hindsight...

The only thing this thread proves is Spider-Dan continues to come here to argue for the sake of arguing....Go ahead,type till your fingers fall off...Blah, Blah,Blah

[Spider-Dan]

How is it "irrelevant hindsight posting" if:

- the GM makes a (bad) move
- I say "it's a bad move" right when he makes it
- a year later, I come back and present the evidence showing that it was a bad move

It's "hindsight" if I wait until after the results to criticize him.  I said it was a dumb decision right when it was made, and the team's immediate and dramatic decline in short-yardage run success proved me right.  The team went from first to worst in one season... what more can you ask for?

[Brian Fein]

You're citing evidence which is situational. You're assuming that:
A) polite would have continued to be the best in the league
B) polite fit the mold of what the team wanted out of that position.

He might have been good at diving forward for a yard but they want a guy that can pick up blitzes, catch short passes, and perhaps, oh I don't know, block for the tailback.  Polite was a liability in these areas. So are you stating that you'd support carrying 2 fullback on the roster because no one else is capable of picking up one yard on a third and short?

[Spider-Dan]

You're assuming that:
A) polite would have continued to be the best in the league
B) polite fit the mold of what the team wanted out of that position.

A) Given that he was the best for two years straight, I presume that he would have continued to be the best until he showed otherwise
B) If reliably gaining first downs did not "fit the mold" of what the team "wanted out of that position" then they deserve every bit of criticism they have received

He might have been good at diving forward for a yard but they want a guy that can pick up blitzes, catch short passes, and perhaps, oh I don't know, block for the tailback.  Polite was a liability in these areas.

Do you have any statistical evidence to provide to show that Polite's replacement was superior in these areas?

So are you stating that you'd support carrying 2 fullback on the roster because no one else is capable of picking up one yard on a third and short?

Didn't MIA carry two "fullbacks" on the roster last year?  Aren't they carrying two again this year?  Or have we finally given up the pretense that Clay is a FB?

It would be one thing if Polite had a huge, multimillion dollar contract.  But he didn't.  So yes, I believe that someone else (I just named plenty of players) should have been cut instead of Polite.  If he's leading the league, you keep riding him until he stops.  It's not that complicated.

And again, I am curious as to what more proof any Polite naysayers want.  With Polite, we were 2nd and 1st in power success (and he was leading the league).  We cut him and immediately fall to DEAD LAST.  Is that just an amazing coicidence?

[Brian Fein]

Its not a ringing endorsement for Polite either, unless you can provide all other things being equal, including o-line, (center and both guards, at minimum), OC and head coach.  I am certain that NOT all of these things are the same.

[Spider-Dan]

Well, if you want to argue that changes in the OL were the cause, we can detail the 2010 OL vs. the 2011 OL.  And if you want to argue about Henning vs. Daboll, that's fine too.  But it bears mentioning that it was Ireland+Sparano in charge for both 2010 and 2011.

It seems to me that for those who argued against Polite's release, this is basically all that we could ask for as evidence to support our position.  The team was the best at converting short yardage with him, and the worst without him.

[Dave Gray]

To be fair, whether you like or dislike both Polite and Ginn, or if you like one and not the other, you must realize that they are different situations that don't compare well in this instance.

Ginn was a very high draft pick.  The expectations for that position and his salary requirements didn't make sense.  The argument for Polite is a different one.