Sounds like there was a monumental ass kicking in Denver last night

[TonyB0D]

it's easy to "win" a debate when you change your stances on positions on the podium....

[Spider-Dan]

10 Years in the business, I think that I have a pretty good grasp of the numbers. How long have you work in the auto industry ?

This is the same guy who complains that not enough of his female co-workers are helping with the lifting of heavy objects.  And now you are representing yourself as an auto industry expert on automobile R&D amortization?  Really?

This is like a fry cook at McDonald's citing his extensive experience in the agricultural industry.

You are correct. All new car lines lose money until the sales catch up to the money investment. I also think you can agree that you can't compare Toyota, who is a pioneer in the hybrid movement to GM, a bankrupt company.

Ironic that you laud Toyota for being a "pioneer in the hybrid movement" while simultaneously bashing GM for the one car they have produced that's more advanced than any hybrid Toyota makes (and sells better than Toyota's plug-in hybrid).

A company, might I add, that was basically forced by it's new creditor, the US Government, to adopt this silly "green" agenda.

Please explain how the U.S. Government "forced" GM to build the Volt when GM had already started the program and produced a prototype nearly 2 years before the Bush administration issued them a loan with the requirement of a new business plan.

How can they make that up through volume ? OK, how can I make this simple for you. For every car they sell, they have a profit, or claimed profit that goes toward total cost of production, ie - parts, labor, materials, R&D. The more cars you produce the more you spread out the total cost to produce each car.

But you're claiming that they are losing money on each car sold.  So if you are LOSING MONEY when you sell a car, how can you turn a profit by selling MORE of them?

They are obviously MAKING MONEY when they sell the cars.  Your own explanation ("once they sell a certain amount of cars they will break even and eventually make a profit") clearly shows this.

The "GM loses money on each Volt sold" lie is a lie. The "each Volt sold" part is what makes it inescapably a lie.  You can argue that GM has lost money on the Volt (as a model line), but you CANNOT argue that GM loses money on each Volt sold, because that's a lie.

First, a good portion of the sales is from fleet sales with a razor thin margin = no profit.

Please tell me exactly what percentage of Volts delivered are to fleet sales.  Oh, wait, you don't know, because you literally just made that up.

Second, you cite a $40k retail price and good sales. Retail price in the car business is irrelevant. With tax credits and incentives you could get over $10k off sticker. Buying a new model car with supposed new technology that far below sticker doesn't inspire confidence in sales or resale value.

With the exception of incentives, none of these things have anything to do with GM's profit per Volt.

Third, a $7,500 tax bribe from the government to buy the volt. Which by default makes the volt market artificially propped up. And the fact that after the tax credit, which expires after 200,000 sales, GM will either sell fewer Volts at the same profit margin, or the same number of Volts at a much lower profit margin.

...or, their costs will go down and they will sell at a similar profit margin, like nearly every other piece of technology ever made.

Fourth, GM has recently increased the sluggish sales of the volt through a low payment subsidized lease for around $9k total payout over 2 years. Now they may claim a initial profit on the sale. I guarantee you that the car won't be worth the residual value at the end of the 24 month period.

While your attempts to predict the future through your crystal ball are somewhat entertaining, the issue at hand is your claim that GM is "losing $49k on each Volt sold" TODAY.

Woo, fucking hoo, 35-40 miles before the battery dies and you have to start burning gas again.

The average one-way commute distance for Americans is 16 miles.  The fact that the Volt's 40-mile all-electric range exceeds the average two-way American commute distance is not a coincidence or accident.  (Compare that to the Volt's most direct competitor, the plug-in Prius, which gets only 11 all-electric miles.)

[badger6]

I see you are picking apart posts again and selectively trying to make yourself much much "smarter" than you actually are.

This is the same guy who complains that not enough of his female co-workers are helping with the lifting of heavy objects.  And now you are representing yourself as an auto industry expert on automobile R&D amortization?  Really?

Obviously, you missed the whole point of that thread, gender discrimination. Oh yeah, I forgot, the only discrimination you give a shit about is when it benefits black people. Anyhow, what does one have to do with the other ? Not like you know me or what I have done in the past. With no reservation, I can say with 100% certainty that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I never represented myself as an "auto industry expert", those are your words not mine. I worked in the auto industry for 10 years, that's a fact. On a daily basis I dealt with internal GM information and financial information. I think that gives me a bit more insight than you.

Again, how long did you work in the auto industry ?

This is like a fry cook at McDonald's citing his extensive experience in the agricultural industry.

I'm sure you would know about working at McDonald's, good job.

Please explain how the U.S. Government "forced" GM to build the Volt when GM had already started the program and produced a prototype nearly 2 years before the Bush administration issued them a loan with the requirement of a new business plan.

And we all know that prototypes always come to market, don't we. If you think for one minute that the government had nothing to do with GM's new and failing "green" agenda, you are blind to reality and/or naive.

But you're claiming that they are losing money on each car sold.  So if you are LOSING MONEY when you sell a car, how can you turn a profit by selling MORE of them?

They are obviously MAKING MONEY when they sell the cars.  Your own explanation ("once they sell a certain amount of cars they will break even and eventually make a profit") clearly shows this.

The "GM loses money on each Volt sold" lie is a lie. The "each Volt sold" part is what makes it inescapably a lie.  You can argue that GM has lost money on the Volt (as a model line), but you CANNOT argue that GM loses money on each Volt sold, because that's a lie.

You are arguing semantics with me. At the end of the day, it is expenditures vs revenue. Fixed costs are amortized over time by how many units you sell. For each unit you sell, your fixed costs come down a little bit.  The cost is spread over the life of the product, no one is disputing that. The problem is that no one knows the life cycle of this product line. GM could discontinue the volt at any time. Given that fact, the only way to get a current accurate assessment of the taxpayers investment, is to figure all expenditures vs all revenue at the current time. The Chevy volt is only under the microscope because taxpayer money has been spent to produce it and sales of the Volt is far under expectations. Otherwise, no one would care.

“It’s true, we’re not making money yet” on the Volt, Doug Parks, GM’s vice president of global product programs and the former Volt development chief, told Reuters. The car “eventually will make money. As the volume comes up and we get into the Gen 2 car, we’re going to turn (the losses) around,” Parks said.

And since GM is in the business of selling cars, Doug Parks just said that they are not making any money selling cars.

So tell me how many vehicles GM needs to sell to break even ?

Please tell me exactly what percentage of Volts delivered are to fleet sales.  Oh, wait, you don't know, because you literally just made that up.

There again, you literally don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I don't need to make anything up for you to make yourself look silly.

GE has ordered a fleet of 12,000 volts to be delivered by 2015 http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/11/officially-official-general-electric-ordering-25-000-electric-v/ . Compared to year-to-date sales through August of 13,500, well below the 40,000 cars that GM originally had hoped to sell in 2012. GM sold 7,671 Volts in 2011, which was well below GM CEO and Chairman Dan Akerson's target of 10,000 units. So Chevy has sold a total of around 21,500 volts.
GE CEO has also stated that they are going to fleet purchase 50,000 vehicles total http://www.forbes.com/2011/03/16/chevy-volt-ayn-rand-opinions-patrick-michaels_2.html. 

Then again, The Department of Defense is going to buy volts in a fleet of 1,500 electric vehicles http://www.stripes.com/news/military-adding-more-electric-vehicles-to-fleet-1.184928 . As far as fleet goes, I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg. But then again, I just made all that shit up on my own, LMFAO..........

With the exception of incentives, none of these things have anything to do with GM's profit per Volt.

The only reason any of this is being examined is because taxpayer money is at stake. Regardless if the money is lost on the front end on losses on the vehicles themselves or on the back end through the taxpayer funded tax rebate doesn't matter. It's all lost tax money regardless....

...or, their costs will go down and they will sell at a similar profit margin, like nearly every other piece of technology ever made.

The costs are going to drop $7500 ? Maybe with an included window sticker the says "batteries not included", ha ha. How long will that take ? How much interest on the debt will offset the lower costs ?  Have new iPhones gotten cheaper ?

While your attempts to predict the future through your crystal ball are somewhat entertaining, the issue at hand is your claim that GM is "losing $49k on each Volt sold" TODAY.

Yes, up until TODAY each unit has lost money. TODAY, not future of sales that aren't guaranteed, all sales up until TODAY. If they stopped making them TODAY, they would have lost approx. $49K per vehicle. They will also lose money TOMORROW on the artificially high residual values they have had to adopt in order to offer low lease rates to artificially inflate the sales numbers.

The average one-way commute distance for Americans is 16 miles.  The fact that the Volt's 40-mile all-electric range exceeds the average two-way American commute distance is not a coincidence or accident.  (Compare that to the Volt's most direct competitor, the plug-in Prius, which gets only 11 all-electric miles.)

It's a moot point. It will be a very long time before any plug in vehicle is successful in this country. Shit, regular hybrids aren't all that successful. GM probably sells more Impalas or Malibus in a month than all of the volts sold this year.

So tell me again how many vehicles GM has to sell to recoup the taxpayers money on their green experiment ?
And also, tell me how long it would take a volt buyer to recoup the cost difference of a comparable gas powered vehicle with the savings on mileage ?

[badger6]

^^^Figured that I would make some more shit up.

Please tell me exactly what percentage of Volts delivered are to fleet sales.  Oh, wait, you don't know, because you literally just made that up.

Just a few companies loading their fleets with volts with plenty more to follow. All padding sales numbers and making little to no profit.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/07/nypd-to-get-first-chevy-volt-police-cars-/1#.UHYT51HYFa8

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110525/CARNEWS/110529891

http://inhabitat.com/zipcar-adds-the-chevy-volt-to-its-chicago-fleet/2012-chevrolet-volt-10/

[badger6]

Please tell me exactly what percentage of Volts delivered are to fleet sales.  Oh, wait, you don't know, because you literally just made that up.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/07/enterprise-rent-a-car-chevy-volt-rental/

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/07/enterprise-rent-a-car-chevy-volt-rental/

So a grand total of 500 of the 13,500 sold are fleet cars or less than 4%. 

[Spider-Dan]

Lest you think that I stopped responding because you are making solid points:

You claimed that "a good portion of [Volt] sales is from fleet sales."  I asked you what percentage of Volts delivered are to fleet sales.  Your responses have consisted almost entirely of statements from various organizations as to their plans for future Volt purchases.  In other words, you have no idea what percentage of Volts delivered (<---this word is important) are to fleet sales.

There have been more than 20,000 Volts sold in the U.S. (link).  Taking the most generous interpretation possible of all fleet Volts actually delivered in all of the links you provided, I arrived at a total of 324 Volts sold.  Is 1.62% a "good portion" of 20,000 cars?

Furthermore, I don't really have much interest in earnest discussion of this topic with someone who misrepresents themselves as an professional subject matter expert in such a dishonest (or delusional) manner.   I would feel the same way about a person who was a cashier at Walgreens for 20 years and claimed to be an expert on pharmaceutical development on that basis.

[badger6]

Lest you think that I stopped responding because you are making solid points:

You claimed that "a good portion of [Volt] sales is from fleet sales."  I asked you what percentage of Volts delivered are to fleet sales.  Your responses have consisted almost entirely of statements from various organizations as to their plans for future Volt purchases.  In other words, you have no idea what percentage of Volts delivered (<---this word is important) are to fleet sales.

Portion or Percentage, more retarded semantics. Did you bother to check the dates on the articles from the various organizations. If the articles were from 2010 and 2011, we are in the future.

There have been more than 20,000 Volts sold in the U.S. (link).  Taking the most generous interpretation possible of all fleet Volts actually delivered in all of the links you provided, I arrived at a total of 324 Volts sold.  Is 1.62% a "good portion" of 20,000 cars?

I guess you missed the two or three other links that I kindly provided to show that the fleet numbers are inflating the sales numbers. Fleets of 12,000 and 50,000 are mentioned and those articles are from 2010 and 2011. The 12,000 units is supposed to be all delivered by 2015. You might be smart enough to figure out that they won't get them all at once and it will take time to get them all.

Furthermore, I don't really have much interest in earnest discussion of this topic with someone who misrepresents themselves as an professional subject matter expert in such a dishonest (or delusional) manner.   I would feel the same way about a person who was a cashier at Walgreens for 20 years and claimed to be an expert on pharmaceutical development on that basis.

Stop lying and be a man instead of a little boy, you're embarrassing yourself.

I said :

10 Years in the business, I think that I have a pretty good grasp of the numbers. How long have you work in the auto industry ?

So kid, how does my above statement say anything about professional expert ?

How long have you worked in the auto industry ?

Tell me again how many vehicles GM has to sell to recoup the taxpayers money on their failed green experiment ?

Tell me how long it would take a volt buyer to recoup the cost difference of a comparable gas powered vehicle with the savings on mileage ?

Tell me how many people can afford this vehicle if the median income of all volt buyers is $170,000 ?

BTW, if you have no interest in replying to a thread, THEN BOUNCE. Take your ass kicking like a man, not a little boy. That goes for all threads for that matter. Either way, no one cares what you do because you are insignificant. Have a great day