Sounds like there was a monumental ass kicking in Denver last night

[badger6]

My favorite quote on statistics... “People commonly use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post; for support rather than illumination.” 

Personally, I think that anyone who accepts a partisan number without reviewing the equation behind it deserves to play the fool.  Unfortunately, those fools are allowed to vote.

That's why you and your type sound so silly. Because statistics are only good if you use them for your own purposes. If anyone else uses them, you make up some nonsense like you spouted above. The fact of the matter is that you don't know shit. I worked for GM for 10 years. I know about how they manage and run things, and it hasn't changed. Let me know when they make profit on that "green" turd volt, however long that will take, if ever. Then I will happily retract my statement. They will be begging for more money before too long, count on it !!!

[Spider-Dan]

That's exactly why I used "declining average" when describing the situation with the failed volt.

Then you don't understand how car manufacturing works.

Every new car "loses money" if you do the math the way you are, which is why NO CAR COMPANY uses that kind of shortsighted, pointless logic.  If Toyota thought like you do, they would have pulled their (Japanese-gov't subsidized) Prius from the market when it was losing money for the first three years.  And the Prius wouldn't be the #3 selling car in the world today.

The sales are nowhere near what they expected to sell. R&D is a cost associated with producing the vehicle and until it is recovered GM has not made one cent of profit on these silly vehicles. Given the low profit margin on these vehicles and all the idiot math on the internet. You tell me how many volts they will have to sell in order to recoup the entire cost or R&D and production on these pieces of shit.

Do you see the problem with your logic?

You claim that GM is "losing money" on each Volt sold.  If they are "losing money" on each Volt, how can they possibly make that up through volume?  Shouldn't they just stop selling them now?

The fact of the matter is that GM is making a hefty profit on each Volt sold.  Yes, they'll have to sell a lot of them (or the other cars that use the Voltec powertrain) to fully recoup the R&D costs, but GM understood that from the start.  The Volt is currently the top-selling plug-in vehicle by a wide margin, selling roughly as many units in 2012 as all of its plug-in competition combined.  It's going to be just fine.

Only a moron would compare Apple and GM. Furthermore, if Apple iPhones were selling as slow as the volt then they may well have cut their losses and moved to their next endeavor.

The real secret here is that the right wants GM to fail, which is why they keep insisting that GM give up on a highly-profitable car that's leading its segment by a huge margin.  Virtually everyone in the automotive industry agrees that the Volt is one of the best cars made by an American company in many, many decades... but then again, if you can gleefully ignore the overwhelming majority of scientists on evolution and climate change, ignoring their opinion of a car you don't want to like should be a walk in the park.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Ok, dude. I'm not going to get nasty here. BUT can you please, for the fuck of shit, explain why you think Obama is a Muslim.
WARNING: If I smell any sort of xenophobic, racist fuckery I will call you out on it.

Ok...GO!

I'll try and answer for him since he won't / can't.  Ahem ...

Cuz he's "a black" with a weird first, middle and last name.  Also, he was IS like a black panther or something like that, possibly related to Malcolm X AND Huey P. Newton.  And finally, cuz Fox-Rush-Hannity-News said so.

  

[badger6]

WARNING: If I smell any sort of xenophobic, racist fuckery I will call you out on it.

"Warning", ROTFLMFAO. That's so scary !!!!!

I'll try and answer for him since he won't / can't.  Ahem ...

Cuz he's "a black" with a weird first, middle and last name.  Also, he was IS like a black panther or something like that, possibly related to Malcolm X AND Huey P. Newton.  And finally, cuz Fox-Rush-Hannity-News said so.

  

Typical, more race baiting I see by the libs and minorities.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Typical, more complaints I see by neo-cons and old people.

[badger6]

Typical, more complaints I see by neo-cons and old people.

Don't change the subject, we were laughing about Obama getting his ass handed to him, stay on track. The bleeding hearts are the ones making excuses and complaining about Obama getting is sissy ass whipped in the debate. That is what the OP was about anyhow, ha ha ha.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

I didn't change anything.  Was also interested in an explanation to your peoples' incredibly ignorant and xenophobic claims ... made by the OP himself so how about you keep up, buddy. 

So much hate and anger.  You must be a hit at parties.

[badger6]

I didn't change anything.  Was also interested in an explanation to your peoples' incredibly ignorant and xenophobic claims ... made by the OP himself so how about you keep up, buddy.

LMAO

Was OP's original post(^^^above) incredibly ignorant and xenophobic ? I think your making shit up. Unless of course you think "LMAO" is xenophobic, ha ha, lmfao.... You know it's funny. Obama, Libs, and blacks must be perfect. I have noticed that if you point out even the smallest thing negative about them, even if 100% true, you are labeled a racist and the truth is ignored. Even blacks that see these things and have the courage to speak up are labeled "uncle toms".

So much hate and anger.  You must be a hit at parties.

Nice try, you're wrong again. I have no hate or anger for anyone that I can think of. In fact, I'm happy as shit right now laughing my ass off at you. Now sober up and get back to living your only reality of playing the helpless victim.

[Spider-Dan]

badger6, I'm still waiting for you to explain how GM is losing 49k on every vehicle they are selling, as you claimed.

Take your time.

[Spider-Dan]

Well, I am unwilling to accept a tax increase.

And that's fine.  But I don't want to hear people like you complaining about the deficit, when you aren't willing to do anything about it.

I suspect the people who want tax increases are the ones who don't really pay any taxes and receive shit from the government in one form or the other. Give you own money away, not other peoples.....

And yet you're happy to insist on spending cuts for programs you don't care about.

A person who was sincere about reducing the deficit would be willing to accept both spending cuts and tax increases; you attack the problem from both ends.  But like most conservatives, you don't actually care about the deficit: it is merely a political hammer that you swing around to try to enact cuts in programs that benefit people that you don't particularly like.

Find the conservative that understands that tax cuts increase the deficit and you'll find someone who honestly cares about reducing our nation's debt.  Good luck with that, though.

[Buddhagirl]

I'll try and answer for him since he won't / can't.  Ahem ...

Cuz he's "a black" with a weird first, middle and last name.  Also, he was IS like a black panther or something like that, possibly related to Malcolm X AND Huey P. Newton.  And finally, cuz Fox-Rush-Hannity-News said so.

  

I'm pretty sure this is the case, but I'm waiting for him to explain. It's one thing to say that you don't agree with the president's policies or the way he's running the country. It's a whole other thing to insist that he is a secret Muslim.

Further, if he is a Muslim so what?

[SCFinfan]

I haven't seen anything nearly as tangible as math come out of Romney's mouth. All I've heard is how we should trust that he'll do a better job than Obama did.  The "please don't think about this" underneath all that rhetoric is the simple and indisputable fact that the Republican party spent the last four years in the most overt and concerted act of political sabotage in the history of the two-party political system, just so they could come back in 4 years and say "see how bad he did?"and get back into office again.

Obama hasn't passed a budget in God knows how long. We've been passing stop-gap spending measures to keep the country going. If you expect math out of a candidate, by the way, you're dreaming. The plans as given by McCain and Obama last election never came to fruition, and they wouldn't have even if Obama had every seat of congress at his command. These things just don't happen.

Here's a question though - could it really be worse than this? Our economy is known for it's dynamism, yet, the unemployment rate stuck above 8% for 44 months, even after Obama said that the stimulus was needed to hold the rate BELOW 8%. In short, we spent a ton of money on a bunch of boondoggles (which, Obama later admitted, were not shovel-ready, and therefore, mostly a waste) and still had a terrible time.

So, how does it get worse than an elevated unemployment level, subsequent to a massive, boondoggle spending program that failed.

The best way to determine what Romney will do is to consider his previous run as governor of Massachusetts. In MA, [t]hrough a combination of spending cuts, increased fees, and removal of corporate tax loopholes,[182] the state achieved surpluses of around $600–700 million during Romney's last two full fiscal years in office, although it began running deficits again after that. (admittedly from Wikipedia, because I am too lazy to go directly to wherever the public docs are available). His actions had some unfortunate consequences: the cuts in state spending put added pressure on localities to reduce services or raise property taxes, and the share of town and city revenues coming from property taxes rose from 49 to 53 percent.[168][182] The combined state and local tax burden in Massachusetts increased during Romney's governorship.[168] He did propose a reduction in the state income tax rate that the legislature rejected.[192]

Anyway, I can't imagine that he'd do differently. You do what you know. If he's fuzzy on specifics, so the hell what. Is Obama always clear? Heck no! After all, it was his ally in the HoR that said "we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it."

Next: sabotage? How about the majority of the "loyal opposition" voting for a war, then jumping across the aisle and berating it the minute they could suck up votes for it. EVERY party does this, you are just myopic because of your preconceptions.

Anyway - moving on.

My dog wouldn't even vote for Romney...

Bottom line...Until I can look at a Republican candidate without thinking "This elitist piece of shit wants the rich to get richer and the Church to dictate how I live my life," I cannot consider voting for them.  Intolerance of others and adherence to an antique work of fiction holds no appeal to me.

Your typical rapier wit.

Allow me to reply on your level: until I can look at a Democrat without thinking, "this jerkwad wants to run over the Constitution and consolidate more power into the federal government, all while allowing the public morality of this country to turn into a substance less palatable than Sunstroke's dog's excretions, I cannot consider voting for them." Pumping the imaginary lever of intolerance, while being intolerant themselves, and adherence to fallacious economic and moral theories from 150 years ago holds no appeal for me.

And this is precisely what I mean by the sadness that is the polarized politics of today. The Republicans are not the enemy, Sunstroke. Neither are the Democrats. That you can't even THINK of voting for a Republican because you're so adhered to democrat propaganda is scary. I could vote for a Dem, assuming they were flexible on some positions. I've stated so on this board. I would welcome compromise on things like gay marriage, if the other side would too. I would expect the same from an educated man such as yourself. But I guess I ask for too much from the "tolerant" crowd. So, go swoon w/ Buddha. Sheep of the same color wool deserved to get fleeced together.

[Spider-Dan]

Obama hasn't passed a budget in God knows how long. We've been passing stop-gap spending measures to keep the country going.

It's tough to pass things like budgets when you have the opposition filibustering at literally record rates.  Now, you might be inclined to respond with something about the 9 months (out of four years, mind you) where the Democrats had 60 votes in the Senate.  And in kind, I would ask:  how many Presidents have been able to pass any kind of legislation with 100% of the Senate opposition party dedicated to filibustering at a record rate?  No President has ever faced this kind of intransigence.

If you expect math out of a candidate, by the way, you're dreaming. The plans as given by McCain and Obama last election never came to fruition, and they wouldn't have even if Obama had every seat of congress at his command.

There is a world of difference between offering detailed plans that are unlikely to be passed, and refusing to offer specifics on your plans because even you know they are mathematically impossible.

McCain & Obama's plans may have been unlikely to get sufficient congressional support, but at least they were mathematically possible.  Romney's (tax) plan is not.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Well, I am unwilling to accept a tax increase. Why don't all the people who are for tax increases start sending their own money to the government and see how many actually do it, ha ha.

As long as all the people who oppose the gov't helping people with social programs stop using 529, the morgage deduction, educational credits, student loans etc. 

[badger6]

^^^ Relax, I'm cooking and watching football 

Then you don't understand how car manufacturing works.

10 Years in the business, I think that I have a pretty good grasp of the numbers. How long have you work in the auto industry ?

Every new car "loses money" if you do the math the way you are, which is why NO CAR COMPANY uses that kind of shortsighted, pointless logic.  If Toyota thought like you do, they would have pulled their (Japanese-gov't subsidized) Prius from the market when it was losing money for the first three years.  And the Prius wouldn't be the #3 selling car in the world today.
Do you see the problem with your logic?

You are correct. All new car lines lose money until the sales catch up to the money investment. I also think you can agree that you can't compare Toyota, who is a pioneer in the hybrid movement to GM, a bankrupt company. A company, might I add, that was basically forced by it's new creditor, the US Government, to adopt this silly "green" agenda. Personally having knowledge of how GM cooks the books, it is of no surprise to me that they deny losing any money on these over priced pieces of shit.

You claim that GM is "losing money" on each Volt sold.  If they are "losing money" on each Volt, how can they possibly make that up through volume?  Shouldn't they just stop selling them now?

How can they make that up through volume ? OK, how can I make this simple for you. For every car they sell, they have a profit, or claimed profit that goes toward total cost of production, ie - parts, labor, materials, R&D. The more cars you produce the more you spread out the total cost to produce each car. The average cost to produce declines on every car you produce. Once they produce and sell a certain amount of cars they will break even and eventually make a profit. GM in no way makes a profit until all costs associated with production are paid. Not sure of the details, but I'm sure that they are floating the money and incurring interest on said debt also.

The fact of the matter is that GM is making a hefty profit on each Volt sold.  Yes, they'll have to sell a lot of them (or the other cars that use the Voltec powertrain) to fully recoup the R&D costs, but GM understood that from the start.  The Volt is currently the top-selling plug-in vehicle by a wide margin, selling roughly as many units in 2012 as all of its plug-in competition combined.  It's going to be just fine.

I think you are confusing fancy accounting with profits, if you worked in the auto industry you would know the finer points.

First, a good portion of the sales is from fleet sales with a razor thin margin = no profit.

Second, you cite a $40k retail price and good sales. Retail price in the car business is irrelevant. With tax credits and incentives you could get over $10k off sticker. Buying a new model car with supposed new technology that far below sticker doesn't inspire confidence in sales or resale value.

Third, a $7,500 tax bribe from the government to buy the volt. Which by default makes the volt market artificially propped up. And the fact that after the tax credit, which expires after 200,000 sales, GM will either sell fewer Volts at the same profit margin, or the same number of Volts at a much lower profit margin.

Fourth, GM has recently increased the sluggish sales of the volt through a low payment subsidized lease for around $9k total payout over 2 years. Now they may claim a initial profit on the sale. I guarantee you that the car won't be worth the residual value at the end of the 24 month period. How many of these post lease volts will GM be able to sell at an artificially inflated residual price, with no customer tax credit, and more competition from a growing market segment. They will take residual loss writedowns on these returned leases, mark my words.

The real secret here is that the right wants GM to fail, which is why they keep insisting that GM give up on a highly-profitable car that's leading its segment by a huge margin.  Virtually everyone in the automotive industry agrees that the Volt is one of the best cars made by an American company in many, many decades... but then again, if you can gleefully ignore the overwhelming majority of scientists on evolution and climate change, ignoring their opinion of a car you don't want to like should be a walk in the park.

No I suspect that the right doesn't want GM to fail and get more taxpayer money to keep them afloat. The real secret is that volt sales are artificially propped up in order to achieve the illusion of profits and success from a failed attempt to prop up a bankrupt company that should have been allowed to fix it's own problems like other companies are left to do. Most Americans are not stupid, gullible, or rich enough to be fooled by this "green" agenda. Woo, fucking hoo, 35-40 miles before the battery dies and you have to start burning gas again. That doesn't justify the $10-20 difference in price. The cost outweigh the benefit for the average citizen. I just read that the average income of a Chevy volt buyer is $170,000 a year. Really ? They gonna sell buckets'O volts, ha ha. The rich get a taxpayer subsidized tax break on an over priced American "sedan" and the rest of us get fucked, again. So I will agree with you that with successful products the R&D isn't really a concern. In the current economy, with jobs and wages the way they are, the artificially propped up CHEVY VOLT is too expensive to build and too expensive to buy. You want to support GM ? Go buy a Chevy Cruze Eco, $12-15k cheaper. It would take 10-12 years for the volt to catch up on upfront cost savings. If not, go buy a number of other cars that beat the volt by 10 + years on upfront cost savings.