I'm okay with a 2-3 record right now.

[EKnight]

There is no debate on Hartline. You said something foolish and you are wrong. No debate on my end. You want to rip and bash Hartline go for it. Have at it.

What part of this is foolish:

"In time? Hartline had one ridiculous game. The rest of the year, it appears teams already figured out how to stop them both. Minus the Cards game, Hartline is averaging 65 yards a game and has no TDs. Bess is at 69 a game and hasn't scored. Miami is still a run-first team. They don't need a third WR- they need a TE who can actually hang on to the ball. -EK"

Wait, wait...I can see it now....every opposing team in the league's game plan:

"Well, we can't run on Miami, that's for sure. And Bush is playing the best football of his career....wait- I've got it! If we can figure out how to stop Hartline, we're GOLD!"

Come off it. Hartline is an above average WR. Nothing more and nothing less. What's foolish is acting like he's some sort of incredible weapon that needs special attention- you know, "figuring him out." What I posted is absolute fact. His games aside from the Cards game (50, 111, 41, 59 and NO touchdowns) are nothing to be figured out. Or if they were, as I said- teams already did. -EK

[Spider-Dan]

I would think that YOU of all people would get that, since from the start of Tebow's career, you (and everyone else) were critical of the fact that he can't throw well, based on the sampling of....get ready for it....how his mechanics were at Florida.

I did not judge Tim Tebow (or Vince Young, for that matter) on college throwing mechanics.  That is something that can be fixed by pro coaches.

Tebow is a horrible passer in the NFL, and that is the basis on which I (and many others) have judged him.

I mean, it's not like I was out there declaring Tebow a bust after two quarters of play...

[MikeO]

I did not judge Tim Tebow (or Vince Young, for that matter) on college throwing mechanics.  That is something that can be fixed by pro coaches.

Tebow is a horrible passer in the NFL, and that is the basis on which I (and many others) have judged him.

I mean, it's not like I was out there declaring Tebow a bust after two quarters of play...

LOL, the fact he is still defending Tebow and still trashing Tannehill is totally priceless!

[Pappy13]

RT's overrated college play...go into my evaluation of them. For whatever reason you can't grasp the fact that RT had some massive flaws in college that he was struggling to overcome heading into the past game (I didn't see the last game, so I don't know anything beyond a stat line). How else do you evaluate a talent coming into the NFL? Do you just completely overlook what he did in college and give him a clean slate?

Um, yeah? Well maybe not a clean slate, but at least you take their college stats with a grain of salt. Who evaluates a NFL QB's play by their college play? Since when? Who does that? I mean you MIGHT use their college play to try to PREDICT their NFL play but you CERTAINLY don't use their college play to evaluate how they are playing in the NFL. THAT'S ridiculous. You're making shit up now EK.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[el diablo]

LOL, the fact he is still defending Tebow and still trashing Tannehill is totally priceless!

Especially when one is starting. And the other one is.....what's the word? Oh, yes. Sitting.

[Brian Fein]

Fact: Ryan Tannehill is at least 10 times better than Tim Tebow.

[EKnight]

No one was defending Tebow. Just because I bring him up, doesn't mean I'm defending him.

Pappy- I'm not saying you base what he's doing NOW on the past, but I'm certainly saying if a RB has a fumbling problem in college, you don't ignore it and just hope it gets better if he starts fumbling in the pros. At some point you have to acknowledge that there are things that won't improve if they continue during NFL play. 

Since El Diablo, Pappy, Brian and Spider chimed in, I'd love to hear their opinion on two things. Personal opinion of me aside- because I get that I ruffle your feathers, but:

1. How was my assessment of Hartline foolish, wrong, or bashing him? Do any of you believe that he's in need of being "figured out" by defenses or is it more like he's a good (above average) receiver, as I pointed out, but no substantial threat given the offense Miami runs, and that defenses have, by and large, already figured out all there is to him?

2. Since MikeO LOVES to accuse me of being "not a fan" because I don't like one of Miami's players, why didn't anyone say the same of him last year when he lambasted Moore throughout his 6-3 run and Marshall in the midst of a Pro Bowl year? Wouldn't the same apply? Does that make MikeO also "not a fan"? Either a fan loves his team and supports all of the players as Mike is proposing or he doesn't. He isn't leaving much room for middle ground.

Serious question for you guys. Mike loves to set "rules" up for his standards of things, but they don't seem to apply to himself. -EK

[MikeO]

Fact: Ryan Tannehill is at least 10 times better than Tim Tebow.

Not even up for debate.

[MikeO]

Um, yeah? Well maybe not a clean slate, but at least you take their college stats with a grain of salt. Who evaluates a NFL QB's play by their college play? Since when? Who does that? I mean you MIGHT use their college play to try to PREDICT their NFL play but you CERTAINLY don't use their college play to evaluate how they are playing in the NFL. THAT'S ridiculous. You're making shit up now EK.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

The statements are getting more over the top and more outrageous. So when Tannehill has good games and he can't be ripped for that we are gonna go back in the time machine those weeks and bring up college stats and rip him on what he did in Big 12 play. Like it matters anymore!

[Pappy13]

Pappy- I'm not saying you base what he's doing NOW on the past, but I'm certainly saying if a RB has a fumbling problem in college, you don't ignore it and just hope it gets better if he starts fumbling in the pros. At some point you have to acknowledge that there are things that won't improve if they continue during NFL play.

Unless or untill they show otherwise. You are really holding onto some things that you believe about RT to be true DESPITE the fact that he's shown otherwise in the pros. Granted he's only had 5 starts so he hasn't really proven anything yet, but on the OTHER hand the fact that he's ONLY HAD 5 STARTS should play into your evaluation of him. If he can play at a fairly high level with ONLY 5 starts under his belt, then I believe you have to believe he's only going to get better. You don't seem to want to admit that in fact you seem to want to INSIST that he'll never be anything despite the fact that he's already shown some success in ONLY 5 GAMES. I believe you are being unreasonable about your criticisms of him as time goes on and he continues to show improvement in a lot of areas. It's NEARLY unanimous from those that know a little about football that he's shown progress. It's time for you to at least admit that you *MIGHT* have been wrong about him. Not that you are, but it's possible. Do that and I won't have a problem with you continueing to want to see better from him.

1. How was my assessment of Hartline foolish, wrong, or bashing him? Do any of you believe that he's in need of being "figured out" by defenses or is it more like he's a good (above average) receiver, as I pointed out, but no substantial threat given the offense Miami runs, and that defenses have, by and large, already figured out all there is to him?

I absolutely believe that he can be a decent #1 WR. Will he lead the lead in receiving yards this year? I doubt it. Will it ever happen? If he and Tannehill continue to have the same type of chemistry they have shown the last couple of games? I'm not so sure.

2. Since MikeO LOVES to accuse me of being "not a fan" because I don't like one of Miami's players, why didn't anyone say the same of him last year when he lambasted Moore throughout his 6-3 run and Marshall in the midst of a Pro Bowl year? Wouldn't the same apply? Does that make MikeO also "not a fan"? Either a fan loves his team and supports all of the players as Mike is proposing or he doesn't. He isn't leaving much room for middle ground.

I got to tell you EK it's hard to believe that you really want to see RT do well. You seem to be so caught up in your prediction that he wouldn't amount to anything that you're completely ignoring what's happening on the field. Yes, I get that RT should NOT be crowned a savior right now and many people are making that mistake as well, but you seem to be the LAST person holding onto the fact that Tannehill wasn't ready to play in the NFL. Almost every talking head out there has seen enough to at least say he's done better than they thought he would. It's hard to imagine a Dolphins fan would be the last hold out on the guy. I'm not expecting you to annoint him a savior, but give him a freaking break already. He's been playing well. He's NOT been Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, but we shouldn't be expecting that of him right now and you seem to be dead set on waiting till he's leading the league in every category before you'll admit that he doesn't suck. Is that really fair to him?

[EKnight]

\I absolutely believe that he can be a decent #1 WR. Will he lead the lead in receiving yards this year? I doubt it. Will it ever happen? If he and Tannehill continue to have the same type of chemistry they have shown the last couple of games? I'm not so sure.

"I absolutely believe that he can be" is not "he is now." THAT was my point. I never said he sucked or anything negative. In essence, then, you agree with me?

I got to tell you EK it's hard to believe that you really want to see RT do well. You seem to be so caught up in your prediction that he wouldn't amount to anything that you're completely ignoring what's happening on the field. Yes, I get that RT should NOT be crowned a savior right now and many people are making that mistake as well, but you seem to be the LAST person holding onto the fact that Tannehill wasn't ready to play in the NFL. Almost every talking head out there has seen enough to at least say he's done better than they thought he would. It's hard to imagine a Dolphins fan would be the last hold out on the guy. I'm not expecting you to annoint him a savior, but give him a freaking break already. He's been playing well. He's NOT been Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, but we shouldn't be expecting that of him right now and you seem to be dead set on waiting till he's leading the league in every category before you'll admit that he doesn't suck. Is that really fair to him?

That didn't answer what I asked AT ALL. Why was Mike not held to the same expectations and why didn't everyone say the same thing to him you just said to me when he was crushing Moore and Marshall? -EK

[Pappy13]

I've had my disagreeements with MikeO as well, but I think we've been able to get past that and simply agree to disagree when we don't agree. Honestly I think you and MikeO need to get there as well. Then everyone can just get back to simply being a Dolphins fan and enjoying the games. We can pick up this debate on Tannehill and Hartline during the offseason when there will be a lot more to analyze.

[Spider-Dan]

1. How was my assessment of Hartline foolish, wrong, or bashing him?

You should probably wait until (at the very least) he is no longer leading the league in receiving yards before you point out his shortcomings.

2. Since MikeO LOVES to accuse me of being "not a fan" because I don't like one of Miami's players, why didn't anyone say the same of him last year when he lambasted Moore throughout his 6-3 run and Marshall in the midst of a Pro Bowl year?

While I disagree with MikeO's assessment of both of those players, they had both played dozens of regular-season games in the NFL when MikeO was criticizing them.  In contrast, you bashed Tannehill during the preseason, then declared your analysis proven after a whopping two quarters of play.

Listen, if you want to say that he sucks before he's drafted, and during the draft, and after the draft, and in the preseason, and in the regular season, that's fine.  I thought Gates was a questionable pick much in that way.  But for you to get on the forum and post, "See, I told you so!" after TWO FREAKING QUARTERS is just the pinnacle of absurdity.

[EKnight]

Again- neither of you addressed my questions. Either you bash a player and that makes you not a fan or it doesn't. Either I was blasting Hartline or I wasn't. The fact that you won't address it head on and you're dancing around the questions leads me to believe that your personal distaste for me prevents you from giving an unbiased answer. -EK