Refs blow huge call..and no one cares.

[fyo]

The "tuck rule stuff" is applicable because if he has control, it's impossible for him to fumble until he completely resets after the pass attempt.

So are you saying the ball never gets knocked lose? It does,  IMHO,  and before the arm starts moving forward. Would you at least agree that IF that were the case, then the result of the play would have to be a fumble?

And the interpretation of "empty hand" you are using right now (in a case where the QB not only holds the ball through the entire throwing motion, but is gripping it so hard that his fingers snap shut when it comes out) would result in nearly every "arm moving forward" call I've ever seen being incorrect.

We're just not seeing the same thing. Empty hand is when the ball is knocked lose prior to the arm moving forward.  IMHO that's exactly the case here. I'm still not entirely sure what it is you're seeing.

What I'm saying is that once that ball is knocked lose initially, before the arm starts moving forward, it doesn't matter if Roethlisberger has an iron grip on the ball afterwards, while the arm is moving forward. It simply isn't possible to establish possession of a ball, by rule, in that manner.

[Spider-Dan]

Again, that interpretation of "empty hand" is strange, given that a) his hand was never anything close to "empty" through the entire passing motion and b) rather than presuming that he lost control and somehow regained an iron grip in a fraction of a second, wouldn't it be more reasonable to presume that he never actually lost control in the first place?  The ball was never touched by the defender.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyXoTgaYmdY

Just because a defender hits you on the arm, that doesn't mean you automatically lost control of the football.  The ball doesn't even shift within his grip until his arm is moving forward.

[Pappy13]

I hadn't seen the play till just now and after watching, I have to agree with Spider, that's an incomplete pass. There's no possible way that is a fumble. He only loses control of the ball when he attempts to stop his throwing motion, not before his arm is coming forward. It can't be a tuck rule because it's not knocked loose by a defender, he just loses control when he attempts to stop the throw.

[Spider-Dan]

Pappy13, it bears mentioning that the tuck rule specifically applies if you lose control when you attempt to stop a throw; that's the entire purpose of the rule.  If you are trying to tuck the ball away and you drop it, it's an incomplete pass, not a fumble.  (And it doesn't matter whether or not you're hit when you're trying to tuck the ball away.)

In my years of watching the NFL (and particularly since 2001, when the tuck rule became famous), I don't know that I've EVER seen a more concrete example of "QB is trying to abort a pass and loses the football" than the video I just posted.  Everything in that video, from Ben's hand position (fingers in front of path of travel) to his tight grip on the ball to his reaction when he loses it, screams loss-of-control-on-aborted-pass.  And that IS the tuck rule, to the letter.

[fyo]

I disagree. Look at the video. He gets hit, the ball rotates and I take the "iron grip" part back. He never regains anything resembling control. The ball isn't even pointed straight forward, but rather still rotating and slipping out of his hands.

[dolphins4life]

another call was missed in the Broncos game, when they called a TD on a punt return when the guy lost control of the ball before he crossed the goal line.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Nobody ever said the refs were perfect.  That certainly wasn't a claim I heard last year.  But they are better than the replacement refs. 

[Pappy13]

Nobody ever said the refs were perfect.  That certainly wasn't a claim I heard last year.  But they are better than the replacement refs. 

How much better I think is the question.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

How much better I think is the question.

From the Millers Anology Test---

replacement refs:regular refs::ryan leaf:dan marino. 

[tepop84]

So in the detroit game, the rb is down, and the refs don't blow the whistle so the rb runs 60 yards to the end zone.  and schwartz throws the challenge flag.  but since it already going to be reviewed, it is a 15 yard penalty on schwartz, and they play doesn't get reviewed because he threw his flag.  Stupid refs blowing the original call and fuck the nfl for having such a stupid rule.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So in the detroit game, the rb is down, and the refs don't blow the whistle so the rb runs 60 yards to the end zone.  and schwartz throws the challenge flag.  but since it already going to be reviewed, it is a 15 yard penalty on schwartz, and they play doesn't get reviewed because he threw his flag.  Stupid refs blowing the original call and fuck the nfl for having such a stupid rule.

Yes, the refs made a mistake on the play, but bigger shame on Schwartz for not knowing the rule. 

I knew he the TD was going to stand because he threw the flag as soon as he did. 

Particularly being that Schwartz has been a benificary of this rule in the past. 

[Spider-Dan]

That's on Schwartz for not knowing the rules.  If he had, the system would have worked properly.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Although I do think it might be a better rule that if you illegally throw a flag you:

1) get a 15 yard penelty (regardless of outcome)
2) lose a challenge (regardless of outcome)
3) lose a timeout (regardless of outcome)
4) but the play is still reviewed.

rather than....

1) play is not reviewed
2) 15 yard plenelty
3) not charged a challenge
4) do not lose TO

[Landshark]

Didn't it used to be that if the play was not reviewable, they just made you pick up the flag?  They should've just made Schwartz pick up the flag and reviewed the play.  Big big mistake by the refs here. 

[Spider-Dan]

The refs enforced the rule.  That is not a "big mistake."