Trayvon vs. Zimmerman - The trial

[Pappy13]

You're talking in circles.

No, I'm not. I'm stating fact. Presuming Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty is NOT an assumption of guilt on Trayvon, it's merely putting the burden of proof on the prosecution. You're forgetting the whole "proven guilty" part of the statement. I didn't say that I'm presuming Zimmerman innocent no matter what. Essentially I'm assuming they are BOTH innocent until the prosecution proves otherwise.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

No, I'm not. I'm stating fact. Presuming Zimmerman is innocent is NOT an assumption of guilt on Trayvon, it's merely putting the burden of proof on the prosecution.

Plus one.  Pappy is correct.

The jury will NOT return a verdict of "innocent".  There is no such verdict the choices are either -- guilty or not guilty.

Spider,

Assume for a moment that Trayvon had lived.  Both are charged with with battery, both assert a "self-defense" "he started, not me" defense. 

You seem to believe that it would be impossible for the jury to conclude that there is insufficient evidence to convict either of them.  I would say it is quite possible.

This is not a civil trial where you must concluded what the preponderance of the evidence is (50%+), but a criminal trial.  One could easily decided that it is more likely than not that Zimmerman is a fault, but that a reasonable doubt exists and thus not guilty.

Trayvon absolutely does not get the presumption of innocence.   That is a right of a defendant, not a victim. 

[pondwater]

It would be fair to say that I think that based on what I have seen of Florida law, it does not seem likely that Zimmerman will be convicted.  In a different state, it would be a different ballgame.

Are you saying that the exact same set of facts, prosecution, and defense would be a different ballgame in a different state? Or are you saying that the state of FL is in some way letting people go? What exactly are you saying?

That's precisely what I mean when I say that most people have already picked a side: not that you are immovably committed to one position, but that your mind is largely decided unless an October surprise-type event pops up.

Given the facts of the trial and only the trial. Do you think that Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder?

[el diablo]

Pure speculation. There is no evidence at all about who grabbed who or who punched who with which hand. You are also speculating which position they are standing in. At this point I could just say there is no way Zimmerman could have initiated contact because his fingers were too stubby to get a good grip.

Also, if I was grabbing someone violently I would do it with my weaker hand in case I needed to punch.

So, I'm speculating Trayvon's only injury (outside of the gun shot wound). I'm also speculating George's only injury to the face. And I'm speculating they're position at the start of the altercation (based on George's words in court). OK, you win.

[Spider-Dan]

Are you saying that the exact same set of facts, prosecution, and defense would be a different ballgame in a different state?

In a word, yes.  The standard that FL has for self-defense is not the same in many other states.

Given the facts of the trial and only the trial. Do you think that Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder?

Are you asking whether I think he is guilty of committing that crime or whether I think he should be convicted of commiting that crime?  Because those are two very different questions.

I could ask that same question about OJ or Casey Anthony.

[pondwater]

In a word, yes.  The standard that FL has for self-defense is not the same in many other states.

I would say that many states feel the same way as FL concerning self defense. So it would depend on which state in particular you are talking about. Moot point anyhow

Are you asking whether I think he is guilty of committing that crime or whether I think he should be convicted of commiting that crime?  Because those are two very different questions.

I could ask that same question about OJ or Casey Anthony.

Do you think he is guilty? Do you think he should be convicted?

[Phishfan]

So, I'm speculating Trayvon's only injury (outside of the gun shot wound). I'm also speculating George's only injury to the face. And I'm speculating they're position at the start of the altercation (based on George's words in court). OK, you win.

You are doing much more than speculating now. You are now misrepresenting some of the facts of the case.

Yes Travon had a wound to his left hand. There is testimony that he was throwing more than one punch which you have completely ignored by speculating it came from the knockdown punch.

George had some type of laceration or abrasion on the right side of his nose but that was not his only injury to the face. Are you forgetting the rest of his swolen and possibly broken nose. Because there was a laceration on one side that does not mean it is the break itself.

I'll give you they were likely face to face as they spoke. You just ignored that you did speculate on which hand someone would reach out with though. 1 out of 4 ain't bad if you are a baseball player but it still isn't great.

[el diablo]

You are doing much more than speculating now. You are now misrepresenting some of the facts of the case.

Yes Travon had a wound to his left hand. There is testimony that he was throwing more than one punch which you have completely ignored by speculating it came from the knockdown punch.

George had some type of laceration or abrasion on the right side of his nose but that was not his only injury to the face. Are you forgetting the rest of his swolen and possibly broken nose. Because there was a laceration on one side that does not mean it is the break itself.

I'll give you they were likely face to face as they spoke. You just ignored that you did speculate on which hand someone would reach out with though. 1 out of 4 ain't bad if you are a baseball player but it still isn't great.

Except that George said in interview #1 with Detective Singleton that "he was punched once, and then fell to the ground." There was testimony that Trayvon appeared to be throwing punches, while on top. But the witness could not confirm if they were actual blows. Seeing as how he didn't see a connection. Or hear any connections. Again, Trayvon only had one cut to his hands. One. Trayvon didn't have any blood or DNA belonging to George on his hands or sleeves.  So the assumption is that Trayvon continued beating George, once they were on the ground. However, there is no evidence to support that claim.

[Phishfan]

Now you want to argue lack of evidence after all of your previous speculation. I'm not going into any of that.

[Spider-Dan]

Do you think he is guilty?

Yes.

Do you think he should be convicted?

Tough to say.  I'll have to wait for the defense witnesses (and cross-examination of the defense witnesses) to answer that.

[CF DolFan]

It seems that in general whites & Latinos think he is innocent and blacks think he is guilty. Both are basing the verdict off of different reasons. In an article on CNN they mentioned this.

Views of justice, he says, are inextricably linked to racial attitudes. Many blacks will see this trial one way, many whites another way, just as they did in the case of O.J. Simpson.

Many blacks feel  Zimmerman should have never gotten out of the car or walked up the sidewalk although everyone agrees he broke no law by doing it.

Whites look at the fact Trayvon called Zimmerman a "crazy-ass cracker" as reason to believe he was already hostile before anything happened. In fact while Zimmerman has been exonerated of a hate crime,  had Trayvon survived he could have been brought up on a hate crime just by what we already know.

Under Florida's hate crime laws, Martin's words could potentially have been used against him had he survived the encounter and Zimmerman had taken the worst of it. That may seem far-fetched, but a state handbook advises that a hate crime may have occurred "if the commission of (a) felony or misdemeanor evidences prejudice based on the race, color, ancestry, ethnicity..."

Although I do know some people who have changed their tune I believe no matter how this case is ruled most people will most likely find their own reasons why they were right and the other guys were wrong. 

My biggest investment in this whole case has been the people that worked it. I have no vested in George but I think the people of this city and county are much better than they have been portrayed.

[Sunstroke]

It seems that in general whites & Latinos think he is innocent and blacks think he is guilty. Both are basing the verdict off of different reasons. In an article on CNN they mentioned this. 

People see what they want to see, and pick and choose the elements of the equation that support their subconscious decision.

[el diablo]

People see what they want to see, and pick and choose the elements of the equation that support their subconscious decision.

Agreed.

[Spider-Dan]

It seems that in general whites & Latinos think he is innocent and blacks think he is guilty. Both are basing the verdict off of different reasons.

I don't know that I would agree with that.  So far, it seems to break down much more along the lines of liberal vs. conservative than it does white+Latino vs. black.  If it really broke down along the lines of the latter, wouldn't the overwhelming majority of people be pro-Zimmerman?

I think it's actually a pretty straightforward liberal vs. conservative case:

- perceived racial profiling of someone who isn't "where he's supposed to be"
- perceived lack of concern for black victims of violence, and/or
- perceived presumption of guilt of black parties to a conflict (even when it is an unarmed minor)
- concealed carry laws (and gun laws in general)
- Stand Your Ground laws

I specifically say "perceived" because that's what makes it a liberal vs. conservative issue: liberals are more likely to perceive those things as a general rule, while conservatives are less likely to do so.

[CF DolFan]

Spider ... Outside of media I have always thought the overwhelming majority of people was pro Zimmerman and that included a whole lot of liberals.