Trayvon vs. Zimmerman - The trial

[el diablo]

^^^ When self defense is in play we do and should. At what point does an offender become a victim in a case like this and vice versa? That is what has to be determined.

If a whore dies during a rape, do we excuse the rape because she's a whore? No. That's why we don't (shouldn't) put victims on trial. "They had it coming" is not an excuse for a crime.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

If a whore dies during a rape, do we excuse the rape because she's a whore? No. That's why we don't (shouldn't) put victims on trial. "They had it coming" is not an excuse for a crime.

That is quite a bit different. 

If the defendant's defense is he was acting in self-defense, than the conduct of the victim is highly relevant.

If a an LSD addict trips out and enters your house by accident at night thinking it is his own and you shoot him thinking he is a burglar: Do we excuse the murder because the victim a worthless druggy?  NO!  We excuse the crime b/c you were acting in self defense. 

The question in this case is did Martin act in such a matter on that day as to place Zimmerman to make Zimmerman reasonable apprehension of serious harm.  To that extent Martin's conduct is on trial.  Whether Martin smoked dope at some point in his life, however, is not relevant to answering that question.     

[Phishfan]

Well you really went to the extreme there. My example was meant to mean more like, what if she specialized in role play of the act of rape and was accidentally choked for too long. Is someone still responsible for her death, well yes. Was it planned, not really.

I really don't think this is even quite on par with what I meant but I wanted to stay with your example.

The best way to really get what I mean is not take it out of context anyway. I specifically said when self defense is in play and you either glanced over that or ignored it.

[CF DolFan]

So should we be asking Zimmerman what his experiences have been with people that looked similar to Trayvon?

Yes ... why wouldn't you? And I don't mean just towards blacks but towards people in general. Does he have ahistory of threatening people with a gubn. does he have a history of pushing things farther they need to go. Pretty much ... what patterns exist in his life?

What does a person's actual history have to do with whom they look similar to?

I was using looks only as a means. Most of us, but I'm quite sure not you, create stereotypical profiles of people when we see them.  Those profiles change as we get to know them either by reputation or experiences directly with them. If I am going to have to make a judgement call on something you may have or didn't do you might want me to think you are generally a decent person.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Well you really went to the extreme there. My example was meant to mean more like, what if she specialized in role play of the act of rape and was accidentally choked for too long. Is someone still responsible for her death, well yes. Was it planned, not really.

I really don't think this is even quite on par with what I meant but I wanted to stay with your example.

The best way to really get what I mean is not take it out of context anyway. I specifically said when self defense is in play and you either glanced over that or ignored it.

My example was meant to mean more like, what if she specialized in role play of the act of rape and was accidentally choked for too long. Is someone still responsible for her death, well yes. Was it planned, not really.

Actually on those facts it would not be murder.  Either manslaughter or negligent homicide. 

So yes, if the victim consented to be choked and the victim specialized in role playing rape and choking, that would be highly relevant.   

The best way to really get what I mean is not take it out of context anyway. I specifically said when self defense is in play and you either glanced over that or ignored it.

I missed that part.  But than what you said is irrelevant to the discussion because self defense is in play. 

[Phishfan]

Does he have ahistory of threatening people with a gubn.

I  can attest that a favorite quote if his at one point was "Say hello to my little friend."

[el diablo]

Yes, my "whore" analogy was extreme. To prove a point. Trayvon was shown to have traces of THC in his system (according to toxicology reports). So how are his school records relevant? They're not. I'm also biased in believing that marijuana use doesn't make one violent. The young man had traces, which doesn't even prove he used that night. So how is his alleged marijuana use relevant? Its not. Just like the fake gold teeth argument. Now, I will agree that marijuana may make you paranoid. But why would a young man have a reason to be paranoid on a Sunday evening in a private neighborhood? Maybe someone following him may have had something to do with that?

[Phishfan]

Actually on those facts it would not be murder.  Either manslaughter or negligent homicide. 

So yes, if the victim consented to be choked and the victim specialized in role playing rape and choking, that would be highly relevant.   

I missed that part.  But than what you said is irrelevant to the discussion because self defense is in play. 

None of what you quoted me on was directed at you. Your response came as I was addressing Diablo originally.

[bsmooth]

Judge ruled inadmissible as it runs afoul of the hearsay rules.

[Phishfan]

Somewhat inadmissable. She left the door open. It cannot be used in opending statements but there are circumstances where it can still come out.

[bsmooth]

Somewhat inadmissable. She left the door open. It cannot be used in opending statements but there are circumstances where it can still come out.

If they can get around the hearsay rules. The door is left ajar, but unless they can do a better job of verifying the "evidence" it will not survive legal scrutiny under the hearsay rules.
The defense is trying to blame the victim here. Zimmerman's own criminal record of violence as an adult is worse than the things Martin supposedly did as a minor. It also does nothing to establishing the claim of self defense since Zimmerman chose to pursue an unarmed minor.

[Phishfan]

^^^ That is a bit of a slipperly slop though. I went down an isle in the store the other day and I didn't even need to be on that isle because I saw a cute girl. That isn't illegal. The state would need to prove Zimmerman actually did something other than walking.

[Spider-Dan]

^^^ That is a bit of a slipperly slop though. I went down an isle in the store the other day and I didn't even need to be on that isle because I saw a cute girl. That isn't illegal. The state would need to prove Zimmerman actually did something other than walking.

If the girl ended up getting raped after she came out of the store, and you were somehow on tape saying on the phone, "Man, I think I'm gonna follow this girl around the store for a minute," you might have a problem on your hands if you don't have an alibi.

[Phishfan]

I certainly would as does Zimmerman. This problem doesn't mean there is enough evidence for conviction though. I am actually looking forward to this thing starting and can't wait until it plays out.

[CF DolFan]

I know of at least 2 people who got jury notices. There's probably more considering how many they are going to vett but I've found out about two of them.