Trayvon vs. Zimmerman - The trial

[Sunstroke]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

In related news, stones around the world are resting easier, knowing that the traditions of stone casting, tossing, throwing and skipping will soon come to a screeching halt...

[Spider-Dan]

None of that mattered. He could have held Trayvon down and pissed in his face. The fact that Trayvon was committing felony battery at the point he gained the advantage and didnt stop as attested by witness Goode. Legally Zimmerman could use deadly force to stop him from doing bodily harm to him.

I'd still like you to explain how that whole "I'm losing the fight so now I am entitled to use deadly force" thing goes.  If I push you in the back and knock you down, and then you get up, pull my shirt over my head and repeatedly punch me, and I can't immediately disengage, does that give me free license to beat you to death, or only to stab you to death?

[Spider-Dan]

I'm sorry but did you mean the states main witness who was caught in a multitude of lies?

The state's main witness:

a) is not Trayvon Martin
b) has not been charged with murder

...so I'm not sure what that has to do with Zimmerman's credibility or lack thereof.

I'll say it again: Zimmerman could have decided to make the case that yeah, he was following this black kid around (but that's not illegal) and yeah, he did initiate the fight (but he still had the right to deadly force in self-defense) and yeah, he did take a bunch of classes on self-defense law (but that's not illegal either).  He chose not to make that case.  Instead, he chose to make the case that he wasn't following Martin and he didn't initiate the fight and he wasn't well-aware of Florida law in this matter.  That's on him.

[Phishfan]

Also Zimmerman trained in MMA fighting in his quest to become an officer, this was testified too in the trial. If it is so bad that Martin liked MMA and may have used moves, what does it say about the other guy who actually trained in MMA fighting?

I believe it was stated that Zimmerman never got past punching a heavy bag. I'm not sure if that was in testimony though.

[masterfins]

At the beginning of this trial I thought this was another case of terribly overcharging Zimmerman (2nd degree) as a result of the surrounding media hype; and the belief that a jury would convict on manslaughter.  However, the more prosecution witnesses' I hear, the more I believe that Zimmerman never should have been charged in the first place.  This was a terrible tragedy that never should have happened, but I don't believe the prosecution has come close to proving Zimmerman broke any laws.

[Spider-Dan]

I think had Zimmerman been arrested and the charges later dropped, this would not have been a media event.

It's the fact that an adult can shoot and kill an unarmed kid in public without even being charged with a crime that was so upsetting.

[Phishfan]

The proecution has rested their case. The defense made a motion for immediate aquittal and it was denied. The defense has their first witness coming to the stand (George's mother).

[masterfins]

I think had Zimmerman been arrested and the charges later dropped, this would not have been a media event.

It's the fact that an adult can shoot and kill an unarmed kid in public without even being charged with a crime that was so upsetting.

Sorry, but he's not a "kid".

[Spider-Dan]

How can Zimmerman's mother come to the stand except as a character witness?  This would seem to play right into the hands of the prosecution.

[pondwater]

I think had Zimmerman been arrested and the charges later dropped, this would not have been a media event.

It's the fact that an adult can shoot and kill an unarmed kid in public without even being charged with a crime that was so upsetting.

That's because self defense isn't a crime. It makes no sense that people can portray that a "grown" man can attack a "kid" and the outcome is that the "grown" man has all the injuries and the "kid" has none. Your statement still assumes that Trayvon didn't do anything wrong. Zimmerman's face and head prove otherwise.

It's the fact that an adult can shoot and kill an unarmed kid in public without even being charged with a crime that was so upsetting.

Even if Trayvon was a violent racist, high on crack, and going to rob and kill Zimmerman, your statement above could still fit the situation. This statement is pure media hype to elicit nothing but emotion from the uninformed masses.

[Spider-Dan]

That's because self defense isn't a crime. It makes no sense that people can portray that a "grown" man can attack a "kid" and the outcome is that the "grown" man has all the injuries and the "kid" has none. Your statement still assumes that Trayvon didn't do anything wrong. Zimmerman's face and head prove otherwise.

Zimmerman claims that he shot Martin because he "feared for his life."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-medical-examiner-20130702,0,1358679.story

"Dr. Valerie Rao, the Jacksonville, Fla., medical examiner for Duval, Clay and Nassau counties, testified that she reviewed Zimmerman’s photographs and medical records. She was not involved in the autopsy of Martin.

The wounds displayed on Zimmerman’s head and face were “consistent with one strike, two injuries at one time,” she testified. “The injuries were not life-threatening,” she said, adding they were “very insignificant.”

Remember, Zimmerman claimed that his head was forcibly slammed into the sidewalk over two dozen times.  He has repeatedly mentioned this head-slamming as justification for why he felt his life was in danger (instead of simply losing a fistfight).

[Spider-Dan]

Even if Trayvon was a violent racist, high on crack, and going to rob and kill Zimmerman, your statement above could still fit the situation. This statement is pure media hype to elicit nothing but emotion from the uninformed masses.

If Martin was "high on crack" and had attempted to rob and kill Zimmerman (unarmed?), this would not have been a news story.

Of course, since he wasn't high, was armed only with candy and iced tea, and was actively trying to avoid Zimmerman before this conflict took place, the situation is different.

[el diablo]

Kinda funny how Zimmerman was never tested for drugs.

[Phishfan]

How can Zimmerman's mother come to the stand except as a character witness?  This would seem to play right into the hands of the prosecution.

She testified to the voice on the recordings. The same thing Martin's mother was able to testify to.

[CF DolFan]

I'd still like you to explain how that whole "I'm losing the fight so now I am entitled to use deadly force" thing goes.  If I push you in the back and knock you down, and then you get up, pull my shirt over my head and repeatedly punch me, and I can't immediately disengage, does that give me free license to beat you to death, or only to stab you to death?

Although a person may stand their ground without first retreating or attempting to retreat, they cannot use more force than is reasonably necessary to defend themselves. In other words, they may use such force as is reasonably necessary to prevent being assaulted.
The word “reasonable” means the test is objective, not subjective. That is, it’s based on the objective set of facts and circumstances, as opposed to a person’s perception of the facts and circumstances. In other words, a person may use such force as a reasonable person in the same situation would perceive as reasonably necessary to use in preventing an assault.

If they use excessive force, they become an aggressor and no longer are acting in self-defense. At this point, the original aggressor becomes the defender and now can use reasonably necessary force to defend against the use of excessive force.
Since Trayvon clearly had the upper hand and people tried to break it up it's reasonable to expect that he should have stopped delivering violence against Zimmerman. As well, the lack of any injuries on Trayvon suggest that even if Zimmerman had touched him that it did not result in any injury so Martin in fact wasn't permitted to use violent force.

Legally this point negates any of the "what-ifs" that might have happened prior the fight.  

Look I don't think Trayvon deserved to die but I do think his actions contributed to his death. I also don't think Zimmerman is an alter boy but I don't think he followed Martin with the intent on killing or even hurting him. I think scenarios play out like this every single day and most of us are lucky to escape. For many others, the game of playing hoodlum gets us into trouble that we didn't expect.

Regardless of all of the other hoopla "evidence" this whole case comes down to one question. Did George Zimmerman legally have the right to use self-defense? I think that generally people agree that the state wasn't able to prove that he didn't because the "evidence" just doesn't exist.