Trayvon vs. Zimmerman - The trial

[CF DolFan]

I'm just curious.  What do you mean by, mob mentality?

The gathering mob that forced them to arrest him before they were ready. Detective Serino and Chief Lee both testified that they weren't able to do their job as they would have liked. Many others have stated the same thing just not in court. They hadn't even recieved the phone records or gotten the testimony of Rachael Jenteal due to subpoenas at that point and that's what the Jax prosecutor used to finally arrest him.

[Spider-Dan]

How do you figure a depraved mind showing no regard for human life was shown? They haven't shown that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation or that he didn't shoot Martin to stop him from attacking him. I understand the charge against him, I don't understand how you think they have proved it. Or are you just saying that if they proved that, then it would be Murder 2?

Yes.

If the jury does not believe GZ initiated the scuffle then this case is open and shut acquittal.
If they do believe he initiated the scuffle, then it should be Murder 2.

[Spider-Dan]

An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1.a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and
 
2.is done from ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent, and
 
3.is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

1. Shooting someone in the chest is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury.
2. Both "these assholes, they always get away" and "fucking punks" indicates ill will and/or spite.
3. Shooting someone in the chest because you have sustained very insignificant injuries in a fight that you started shows an indifference to human life.

[Spider-Dan]

The gathering mob that forced them to arrest him before they were ready. Detective Serino and Chief Lee both testified that they weren't able to do their job as they would have liked.

Um, prior to that "gathering mob," there was no job to do, as the police had already "investigated" and opted not to arrest him at all.  That was the entire reason for the existence of the "mob" in the first place.

[Pappy13]

She was peeved because the defense kept trying to speak up but George Zimmerman himself has to say he will not testify and that it is his own decision regardless on any influence from his lawyers.

Ah, maybe that was the issue because it looked to me like George was gonna do whatever his lawyers told him to do. She wanted him to say that it was his decision. Got it.

[Pappy13]

Yes.

If the jury does not believe GZ initiated the scuffle then this case is open and shut acquittal.
If they do believe he initiated the scuffle, then it should be Murder 2.

Not just that he initiated the scuffle, but that he also was not acting in self defense. If he initiated the scuffle but they believe that Martin escalated it to the point that Zimmerman believed he had to shoot him to protect his life, it's not Murder 2.

[Phishfan]

^^^ I agree but I don't believe Spider feels that way. I'm not sure if he has mispoken but he has said several times he does not feel you can start a fight and then use a gun in self defense later.

[CF DolFan]

Um, prior to that "gathering mob," there was no job to do, as the police had already "investigated" and opted not to arrest him at all.  That was the entire reason for the existence of the "mob" in the first place.

Did you even read what I wrote? They hadn't even received the phone records or gotten the testimony of Rachael Jenteal due to subpoenas at that point and that's what the Jax prosecutor used to finally arrest him.[/b]

[el diablo]

The gathering mob that forced them to arrest him before they were ready. Detective Serino and Chief Lee both testified that they weren't able to do their job as they would have liked. Many others have stated the same thing just not in court. They hadn't even recieved the phone records or gotten the testimony of Rachael Jenteal due to subpoenas at that point and that's what the Jax prosecutor used to finally arrest him.

Oh, so the peaceful legal demonstration to redress a grievance against the local law enforcement, is a gathering mob. Gotcha. For the record, Tracy Martin started asking for GZ's arrest on 3/8/12. One week after his son was shot. No Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson with him.

The same two detectives that caught George lying about why he got out of his car & "following" Martin? The same two who went on to say that believe GZ was telling them the truth, on the stand?

The same chief who went on TV, two weeks after the murder to say he had "no idea that GZ had a criminal record". Why? "Because he portrayed himself as having a squeaky clean record." CF13 News 3/12/12.
It took numerous request from the parents, just to get the 911 tapes released. Three weeks after Trayvon was killed. Contrast that with Casey Anthony. It only took OPD just 8 days to release the 911 tapes of Cindy Anthony to report that her granddaughter was missing. No press conferences needed.
Who were they investigating? The victim or the shooter?

[CF DolFan]

You leave out so much that I can't tell if you are being facetious or just ignorant of the facts. I'm referring to the Black Panthers, lies by the Martin's attorney and the 1000's of protesters attacking the police and City hall by phone, mail, TV, other government and in person.

Again ... until Ms. Jaxonville got a hold of the information the Sanford Police Department was waiting on they didn't arrest either. After watching the trial many people realize why. They simply have no "evidence" . They weren't even able to effectively use their biggest piece of evidence as she simply didn't have much to add when all things considered. 

[CF DolFan]

Not sure if you guys have seen it but Chief Lee spoke publicly for the first time yesterday about the event.

Former Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee Jr. said he got the call about shooting of Trayvon Martin on a rainy Sunday evening --Feb. 26, 2012 -- and headed to the scene at the Retreat at Twin Lakes.

"We had a 17-year-old, dead child -- somebody's child. And everyone wanted to find out the truth about what happened so that we could seek justice and make sure that justice was found for that 17-year-old child," Lee said.

Without specific evidence to refute Zimmerman's self-defense claims, Lee said, an arrest would have subjected the city to possible litigation for unlawful arrest

Lee was fired months later amid national outrage over his claim he did not have probable cause to arrest Zimmerman.  And he stands by that decision.

"Why didn't you arrest him?" Local 6 investigative reporter Tony Pipitone asked.

"Because I took an oath. The laws of the Constitution and the state of Florida say if you don't have probable cause to arrest someone you can't arrest them," Lee replied.

When asked why Lee couldn't arrest Zimmerman, he said there wasn't enough evidence to refute Zimmerman's self-defense claim.

"Well, when George Zimmerman makes the claim of self-defense we have to have some information that invalidates that or refutes that and, up to that point and continuing over the next several days, we did not have that," Lee said.

"If you did arrest him, would you still have your job?" Pipitone asked.

"That's a good question.  Probably," Lee said.

He revealed for the first time some of the internal deliberations and pressures with the police department and City Hall, including what became regular requests that he charge Zimmerman.

Those pressures, he said, contributed to the decision to hurriedly send the case to the state attorney before the police received cellphone records that would have led them to Rachel Jeantel, the young woman Trayvon Martin was speaking to just before he was shot.

Armed with Jeantel's statement, special prosecutor Angela Corey found enough probable cause to charge Zimmerman with second-degree murder, a decision effectively upheld last week when Judge Debra Nelson rejected the defense motion for judgment of acquittal.

Lee complains that the involvement of civil rights lawyers and activists complicated his investigation, leading to a lack of full cooperation from Martin's family.

He also said he is absolutely certain Tracy Martin told his detective the screams on a 911 call that captured the shooting were not from his son, Trayvon. Tracy Martin testified in court earlier this week that he was misunderstood by authorities and distraught from hearing his son on the call.

Additionally, Lee criticized the special prosecutor's office for interviewing Jeantel in the presence of Martin's weeping mother, Sybrina Fulton.

Asked if Zimmerman would have been charged if he were black, Lee said race had nothing to do with his decision and that those allegations are not true.

"Just because they say that doesn't mean it's the truth," Lee said. "And the Sanford Police Department conducted this investigation with no race in mind."

[Spider-Dan]

Did you even read what I wrote? They hadn't even received the phone records or gotten the testimony of Rachael Jenteal due to subpoenas at that point and that's what the Jax prosecutor used to finally arrest him.

Without the "gathering mob" there would have been no subpoenas to wait on.  The Sanford PD had already "investigated" and felt that Zimmerman's story was confirmed; enough that they let him wander about the police station unescorted 3 days later.

It's not like this case instantly blew up; Sanford PD quickly swept it under the rug and tried to sit on it.  Martin was shot on February 26, Reuters wrote the first national story on March 7, SPD turned the case over to the state attorney on March 13 and the special prosecutor was appointed on March 22.  As far as I can tell, the first organized protests happened the week of March 20.

[CF DolFan]

It was an ongoing investigation and they stated that every time. Everytime they were pushed on an arrest they said they didn't have the evidence to do so but it was NEVER said or insinuated to be a closed case and that's what you are implying. That's simply not true.

[Spider-Dan]

Does it seem normal to let a suspect in a potential murder investigation walk around a police station unescorted?

They were dotting Is and crossing Ts.  Not only did they not arrest him, they basically treated the investigation as a formality, and did not treat him in a manner that reflects a potential murder suspect.

This was part of the reason for the protests.  It was not only the non-arrest of GZ; it was the apparent complacency and lack of motivation of the SPD.  On the heels of the turn over every stone, kick down every door investigation of Casey Anthony, this was seen by many as dismissing Martin as a potential victim.

[el diablo]

You leave out so much that I can't tell if you are being facetious or just ignorant of the facts. I'm referring to the Black Panthers, lies by the Martin's attorney and the 1000's of protesters attacking the police and City hall by phone, mail, TV, other government and in person.

Again ... until Ms. Jaxonville got a hold of the information the Sanford Police Department was waiting on they didn't arrest either. After watching the trial many people realize why. They simply have no "evidence" . They weren't even able to effectively use their biggest piece of evidence as she simply didn't have much to add when all things considered. 

You're right. There's a lot that I leave out. Like, on that night. When the police were called. Trayvon wasn't seen as a victim. He was seen as a suspect. After all, GZ called the non-emergency number. Then moments later, the police are responding to shots being fired. They show up with one person dead, and the other one looking like he had been in a fight. Natural assumption is that the one who lived isn't the suspect. Considering he called the police & the other one didn't. The police tried to save the victim's life, but it was already too late. No one at the scene could identify the victim. Not until after the father reports the victim missing, that he is identified. Meanwhile, GZ had been interviewed (not interrogated or drug tested, but victim is) and had gone through a re-enactment. During which time, GZ writes out a report that refers to the victim as a "suspect" 18 times. Officer Singleton reads this, then says on the stand "that she didn't find that unusual." After all, at that time Trayvon was still seen as a suspect. Days later, Officers Serino & Singleton go over GZ's 911 tape with GZ. Again, not as an interrogation. Catch GZ in "inconsistencies" that seem minor at the time. But later on prove vital. Remember, GZ was talking without a lawyer at this time. He hadn't been accused of anything. Tracy Martin hadn't called for his arrest yet. The 911 tape hadn't been released yet. The "mob" hadn't learned of this yet. Still GZ (according to his Hannity interview) had found it necessary to be in exile. Since the night of the shooting. Well before any news got out.

So when I ask, who were they investigating? Its not unreasonable to me to ask the question. Considering if I get pulled over, within minutes they know my address, driving history, and if there are any outstanding warrants. Maybe more information. On that, I am uncertain. But two weeks after the shooting, the Chief of Police comes out and says, "He had no idea, GZ had a criminal record." Meaning, the media found out, before he did. Local at that.  Speaking of which, Tracy Martin used them one week later to appeal to the local public. He simply wanted to know why his child's murderer had not been arrested. He didn't stage a rally with thousands of people. He had a press conference. Because he felt that his son couldn't have committed a crime worthy of death. Especially at the hands of someone who lacked "evidence" to accuse & convict someone of a crime that was never committed. SPD was waiting on information. Just not information to arrest GZ.  It took 3 weeks just to release the same 911 tape, that they had gone over with GZ. Who was not as a suspect at that time.

Its hard to figure out, who did what. When one person is dead, and the other is alive. I will give anyone that. That's why the law, as written contains a fatal flaw. That flaw is that you can't give people authority that is meant for law enforcement to the people. If anything, regardless of the verdict. That should be addressed.