Trayvon vs. Zimmerman - The trial

[pondwater]

Prosecution closing statements are questions and speculations. Question marks are not proving their case! Questions = reasonable doubt. Pick a theory or u cannot win, is the prosecution throwing this?

[Phishfan]

I have gone round and round on this case. At first, I really thought it was self defense and justified. Then I thought maybe Zimmerman overreacted because the injuries were not very severe. Then I thought you really don't need to have physical injuries as the key is the fear you feel. Then I started thinking about Zimmerman's unreliability and possible stretching the story to fit his needs.

I'm really glad I'm not on the jury as my head has been bouncing around on this one a lot (maybe that is actually better than having someone who has held strong the entire time though).

[Dave Gray]

This is a difficult case for me to judge.  All along, I said that I was OK with whatever result came from the evidence, so long that Zimmerman was arrested and that there was a trial.

I think it's likely that Zimmerman committed a crime (and if he didn't, what he DID should be considered a crime), but it's really hard to prove it when your best witness is dead.

[Phishfan]

But ultimately: if murder 2 and voluntary manslaughter carry the same penalties in Florida, this entire line of discussion is basically a waste of time.

They were just discussing this on TV. I was mistaken, manslaughter apparently does not have the same penalties. It is at the judge's discression but the generic suggestion according to the analyst is around 10 years.

[Spider-Dan]

You can look it up as easily as I can. I've already given you part of it in this thread and even showed you how your own statement negates the ill-will section which defines what murder 2 is.

I see what the problem is.  You appear to be looking at the alleged battery/detainment, and saying that his mindset in committing that act would not qualify him for 2nd degree murder.  Well, of course not.  It also wouldn't qualify as a homicide, because it wasn't.

One of the qualifying conditions for 2nd degree murder is FL is defined as "Murder with a Depraved Mind," which is the following:

"Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life."

So then:

Martin was killed when Zimmerman shot him.
Shooting someone is imminently dangerous.
Shooting someone because you have incurred very insignificant injuries as a result of an altercation that you initiated evinces a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.
Q.E.D.

Also, let's think about your statement for a minute. Murder 1,2,3 are organized by severity? How is a murder any less severe than another murder? It is still murder. The classifications have to do with how it was comitted.

Not sure why this is hard to understand: murder 1 is worse (and carries stiffer penalties) than murder 2, which is worse than murder 3.  Do you have some different understanding of the word severity?

[Pappy13]

"Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life."

So then:

Martin was killed when Zimmerman shot him.
Shooting someone is imminently dangerous.
Shooting someone because you have incurred very insignificant injuries as a result of an altercation that you initiated evinces a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

How do you figure a depraved mind showing no regard for human life was shown? They haven't shown that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation or that he didn't shoot Martin to stop him from attacking him. I understand the charge against him, I don't understand how you think they have proved it. Or are you just saying that if they proved that, then it would be Murder 2?

[Pappy13]

What was this all about? is this normal protocol for the judge to make such a big deal over whether the defendant testifies?

http://youtu.be/UgDuu6i8MtE

That was VERY strange. Course I haven't been in the courtroom in any murder trials so perhaps all judges are this way? Seems like she was peeved that the prosecution hadn't made up their mind whether or not Zimmerman would testify and was trying to get an answer from Zimmerman instead.

[phinphan]

Some kid just punched his dad for cheating on his mom the other day and his HEAD HIT THE PAVEMENT he is in critical care. knuff said...... Sorry spidey pavement is a weapon.

[CF DolFan]

I don't think its a stretch in thinking they have not produced "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence to convict him but I wouldn't be surprised with any verdict.

The worst part is this isn't just a trial about the victim. There are many victims in this case with possibly the biggest one being the system itself. If George is convicted with what they have not proven then we are only reinforcing mob mentality. I would expect that it would get worse.

[Landshark]

Some kid just punched his dad for cheating on his mom the other day and his HEAD HIT THE PAVEMENT he is in critical care. knuff said...... Sorry spidey pavement is a weapon.

The dad deserved to get punched for wrecking his home like that.  Another discarded wife and shattered kids for therapists/counselors to deal with.  

[el diablo]

I don't think its a stretch in thinking they have not produced "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence to convict him but I wouldn't be surprised with any verdict.

The worst part is this isn't just a trial about the victim. There are many victims in this case with possibly the biggest one being the system itself. If George is convicted with what they have not proven then we are only reinforcing mob mentality. I would expect that it would get worse.

I'm just curious.  What do you mean by, mob mentality?

[Cathal]

^^^ I assume the mob that formed to get this man arrested and moved to trial.

[Phishfan]

I see what the problem is.  You appear to be looking at the alleged battery/detainment, and saying that his mindset in committing that act would not qualify him for 2nd degree murder.  Well, of course not.  It also wouldn't qualify as a homicide, because it wasn't.

One of the qualifying conditions for 2nd degree murder is FL is defined as "Murder with a Depraved Mind," which is the following:

"Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life."

So then:

Martin was killed when Zimmerman shot him.
Shooting someone is imminently dangerous.
Shooting someone because you have incurred very insignificant injuries as a result of an altercation that you initiated evinces a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.
Q.E.D.
Not sure why this is hard to understand: murder 1 is worse (and carries stiffer penalties) than murder 2, which is worse than murder 3.  Do you have some different understanding of the word severity?

Actually, I was looking at the definition of Depraved Mind from the actual jury instructions they will hear.

Second degree murder

To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1.Trayvon Martin is dead.
 
2.The death was caused by the criminal act of George Zimmerman.
 
3.There was an unlawful killing of Trayvon Martin by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.
An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1.a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and
 

2.is done from ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent, and
 

3.is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.
In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/7/12/zimmerman_jury_instructions.html?cid=rss

[Phishfan]

That was VERY strange. Course I haven't been in the courtroom in any murder trials so perhaps all judges are this way? Seems like she was peeved that the prosecution hadn't made up their mind whether or not Zimmerman would testify and was trying to get an answer from Zimmerman instead.

She was peeved because the defense kept trying to speak up but George Zimmerman himself has to say he will not testify and that it is his own decision regardless on any influence from his lawyers.

[Fau Teixeira]

so .. who's winning ?