Trayvon vs. Zimmerman - The trial

[masterfins]

On a related note, here's an interesting statistic I just saw: the difference in killings being found as justifiable in SYG states vs. non-SYG states.  This graph is... eye-opening:

I read the article that you linked to the graph, and although the graph looks pretty astounding, the facts behind it aren't.  The statistician that made the graph had so few "white on black" cases (only 25 in the FBI data base) that he had to use regression analysis to extrapolate to the seemingly high variance.  When I see small number sets like this it always make me think of early in the baseball season when a player gets on a hot streak and hits several homers in the first few games of the season and some nitwit announcer says "he's on pace to hit 92 home runs this year."  Furthermore, the article states that the facts behind the cases are not taken into account; so you don't know whether these are cases of home invasion or whether they occurred in public on the street.

[pondwater]

Do you mean like Al Capone and Michael Corleone?

Gangster idolization has been going on for longer than either of us has been alive.

I think you know exactly what he is talking about. He said "gangsta".

Once again:

In many states, a defendant that claims self-defense assumes the burden of proving that the homicide was justified.  In Florida, the prosecution has to prove that the homicide was NOT justified.  None of this has anything to do with Stand Your Ground.  The only correlation is that states with SYG laws also tend to be more likely to shift the burden of proof (in self-defense) to the prosecution in general, but those are two separate things.  As previously stated, New York is not a SYG state, but does shift the burden of proof in self-defense cases to the prosecution.

On a related note, here's an interesting statistic I just saw: the difference in killings being found as justifiable in SYG states vs. non-SYG states.  This graph is... eye-opening:

You are emotionally hijacked by the media. You may have racial and anger issues also. I could put up $1000 and I bet I could guess what your race is.

[Spider-Dan]

I think you know exactly what he is talking about. He said "gangsta".

It sounds like you're implying there's a difference.  Is the adulation of black gangstas any different than the adulation of white gangsters?  If only we could return to the days of idolizing the Italian Mafia, what with their noble codes of honor.  You know, all the way back to when TV shows like The Sopranos were revered.

You are emotionally hijacked by the media. You may have racial and anger issues also.

But let me guess, you see through the media fog with complete clarity, and are steadfastly objective on matters of race?

"You're so biased, unlike me!" is just about the laziest and most useless rebuttal to make.

[CF DolFan]

Do you mean like Al Capone and Michael Corleone?

Gangster idolization has been going on for longer than either of us has been alive.

That's pretty silly. I don't know any kid who grew up in the 70's and wanted to be Al Capone. I'm sure there were some but it wasn't a glamorous and sought after accomplishment.

People like you are central to what's wrong with our country. Instead of dealing with anything that is an issue you look to point and blame something else.

I heard a black man going off about Al Sharpton on the radio today and talking about these same kind of things. Reminded me of Bill Cosby. He said Sharpton doesn't care about what really hurts black people. All he cares about is getting paid. If not he wouldn't be concerned with manipulating one latino on black crime and would focus on black on black crime, blacks leading teen preganancy, blacks leading single families, blacks leading high school drop-outs, blacks leading the lines of welfare. He said that worrying about how white people affect blacks isn't helping the black community one little bit and pointed to the Rasmussen poll from a few weeks ago.  It showed that even blacks believe other blacks are more racist than whites. BTW ... that same poll also pointed out that only "white liberals" voted white people more racist than blacks. Meaning Asians, and Latinos also voted blacks as being the most racist. 

He went on to say that he's been called uncle Tom more than *n* and that somehow bettering himself and raising his family was to be portrayed a negative in today's society.

[SCFinfan]

Not when they come at the expense of homicide victims.

To clarify: these specific type of "robust protections" (both SYG and this kind of shifting burden of proof) protect killers.  Now, did some (or even many) of these killers have a legitimate justification to kill?  Maybe.  But I want people to be wary and concerned about taking someone else's life.  I want them to be worried about trying to prove that they had no choice but to kill.  I don't want to make things easier and simpler and safer to kill another person.

And I can't help but think that if Florida DIDN'T have such defendant-favorable self-defense laws (which Zimmerman was extremely well-versed on), he might have thought, "Hmmm, I'd better let the police handle this, as if there's some sort of scuffle and I have to use my gun, I'm going to go to prison for a long time."  Instead, people are emboldened by the law to solve problems themselves.

Spider, I'm astounded at this. Yes,  they protect killers, so does the 4th amendment, the 5th amendment, and the 6th amendment. Maybe if we were rid of them this tragedy wouldn't have happened - but is that what you want?

Again - I'll refer to my "fabric" argument from before. You pull one thread... the rest may go.

[CF DolFan]

It's certainly easy to spot Judge Nelson these days. The night of the verdict she got food from Chipotle by my house (after she answered the jury question and before the verdict) and today she came downtown Sanford to eat lunch. She's certainly not hard to spot as she has been, and continues to be, escorted by 5 deputies. Interestingly she ate at the place where I mentioned all the photo modeling being done. Didn't see any naked girls today.

[Spider-Dan]

That's pretty silly. I don't know any kid who grew up in the 70's and wanted to be Al Capone.  I'm sure there were some but it wasn't a glamorous and sought after accomplishment.

The Godfather was a pretty popular movie at the time.  And I'd hardly say it's unusual to see people glamorizing Scarface or Tony Soprano today.

People like you are central to what's wrong with our country. Instead of dealing with anything that is an issue you look to point and blame something else.

The irony (and hypocrisy) in this statement is mind-blowing.  You were just pointing at and blaming gangstas!

Of course, in your mind, a unarmed kid being killed by a armed adult is not the issue that needs to be dealt with.  No, instead we should be pointing at and blaming black pop culture, what with their obsession with baggy clothes, gold, and womanizing:

How in the world did we go from a society where little boys wanted to be police, fire, professional baseball players and doctors to wanting bagging clothes, lots of gold, and bitches/hoes at our feet?

You're right, the baggy clothes and the gold were the source of Trayvon Martin's troubles.

[Spider-Dan]

Spider, I'm astounded at this. Yes,  they protect killers, so does the 4th amendment, the 5th amendment, and the 6th amendment.

I'm sure you understand the difference between a law that protects anyone accused of any crime, and a law that specifically protects people who have committed homicides (like SYG).

[SCFinfan]

I'm sure you understand the difference between a law that protects anyone accused of any crime, and a law that specifically protects people who have committed homicides (like SYG).

Oh, so we should treat people who commit homicides differently then? Do you believe in the death penalty then?

[Spider-Dan]

I believe we should do as much as possible to write our laws in a way that encourages restraint in killing others.

I don't support the death penalty (and would not have advocated it for Zimmerman or even Casey Anthony, if they were convicted on their worst charges) but that's probably a subject for a whole other thread.

[CF DolFan]

The Godfather was a pretty popular movie at the time.  And I'd hardly say it's unusual to see people glamorizing Scarface or Tony Soprano today.
The irony (and hypocrisy) in this statement is mind-blowing.  You were just pointing at and blaming gangstas!

Of course, in your mind, a unarmed kid being killed by a armed adult is not the issue that needs to be dealt with.  No, instead we should be pointing at and blaming black pop culture, what with their obsession with baggy clothes, gold, and womanizing:
You're right, the baggy clothes and the gold were the source of Trayvon Martin's troubles.

I didn't blame ganstas. I blamed the mindset behind it but you knew that. If your looking at a reason for Trayvon dying I'd help you out but you don't really care about him.  You are just looking for reasons to blame the white people for things. This one case has absolutely nothing to do with what's hurting blacks ... But I already said that didn't I?

[Spider-Dan]

I didn't blame ganstas. I blamed the mindset behind it but you knew that.

Seeing as how there is zero evidence that Martin was involved in any actual gang, that much was obvious: you were blaming gangsta culture. (and baggy pants, and gold, and womanizing...)

If your looking at a reason for Trayvon dying I'd help you out but you don't really care about him.  You are just looking for reasons to blame the white people for things.

Actually, I've been blaming the poorly-conceived laws, instead of scapegoating rap music or hats worn sideways or other irrelevant nonsense that has nothing to do with this case.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Once again:

In many states, a defendant that claims self-defense assumes the burden of proving that the homicide was justified.  In Florida, the prosecution has to prove that the homicide was NOT justified.  None of this has anything to do with Stand Your Ground.  The only correlation is that states with SYG laws also tend to be more likely to shift the burden of proof (in self-defense) to the prosecution in general, but those are two separate things.  As previously stated, New York is not a SYG state, but does shift the burden of proof in self-defense cases to the prosecution.

On a related note, here's an interesting statistic I just saw: the difference in killings being found as justifiable in SYG states vs. non-SYG states.  This graph is... eye-opening:

So what does this prove? 

The answer is pretty clear.....

The majority of time in which white person kills a black person it is in self-defense. 

You might have a problem with the law that let Zimmerman walk, I have a problem with the law that award $43 dollars to Darrell Cabey because Bernhard Goetz refused to be a burglary victim. 

[CF DolFan]

Seeing as how there is zero evidence that Martin was involved in any actual gang, that much was obvious: you were blaming gangsta culture. (and baggy pants, and gold, and womanizing...)
Actually, I've been blaming the poorly-conceived laws, instead of scapegoating rap music or hats worn sideways or other irrelevant nonsense that has nothing to do with this case.

if you think I'm talking about this case the you are mistaken. I'm saying blacks have much larger issues than this one case ... Even if Zimmerman is the culprit you want him to be.

I think Zimmerman made mistakes and I think Trayvon made some but either way Zimmerman doesn't appear to have broken the law. Heck in the 80/90s I could have done just what Trayvon did. I've beat people up for much less than following me or checking me out.

I quit fighting years ago for this very reason. People carry guns and that is the biggest eaquilizer I know of.

[Pappy13]

In many states, a defendant that claims self-defense assumes the burden of proving that the homicide was justified.  In Florida, the prosecution has to prove that the homicide was NOT justified.  None of this has anything to do with Stand Your Ground.  The only correlation is that states with SYG laws also tend to be more likely to shift the burden of proof (in self-defense) to the prosecution in general, but those are two separate things.  As previously stated, New York is not a SYG state, but does shift the burden of proof in self-defense cases to the prosecution.

Thank you. That's exactly what I thought.