Richie Suspended

[MikeO]

Then why are you even asking about the other stuff? Saying, "here is the question we need answered..." Is just nonsense. What they need answered is whether or not Incognito is going to jail. -EK

Because we are talking about the entire situation.......and I am curious about the ENTIRE story and what caused all of this! You don't need to respond to my posts or aspects of it if you aren't interested. Just skip it!

[Spider-Dan]

I didn't call him a pussy, I said that he wasn't mentally tough enough for the NFL which I think is true if what prevented him from going to the authorities was his fear of being called a pussy.

Although I wasn't necessarily referring to you, your commentary fits.  Saying that he is "not mentally tough enough" is six of one, a half-dozen of the other.

On this (and other) message boards, I'd say about 60% (but trending down, at least) of the comments from Miami fans has been somewhere along the line of "Martin is such a wimp, he can't make it in the NFL."  It shouldn't be hard to find several examples of that kind of commentary in this thread alone.

[Spider-Dan]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9926139/richie-incognito-miami-dolphins-used-slurs-messages-jonathan-martin

Voicemail from Incognito to Martin in April 2013 (Martin was drafted in 2012):

"Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

I know, boys being boys, get the sand out of your vagina, etc.

According to another article, Incognito was part of the leadership council this season?

Must have been a Philbin Guy.

[Dave Gray]

I'm a little late to the party.  My opinion is subject to change, if new info surfaces, but from what it looks like:

1) You can't blame the victim.  Martin was taking unreasonable abuse.  Even if he was somewhat complicit in some kind of rookie hazing, there is pretty definitive proof that Incognito not just stepped over the line, but took a giant leap over it.

2) There is a failure of leadership for the Dolphins.  Not only are the veterans in the locker room not stepping up (and sound complicit if not directly responsible for the problem), but the coaches, all the way up to Philbin, should've acted.  If they didn't know, it says something about them that this is happening and it's news to them.


This can go two ways.  Firstly, it's good that this came out.  No wonder the line sucks, with this kind of dysfunction in what's supposed to be a supportive working environment.  Incognito is probably done forever on this team.  Martin is likely done, too, although I'd hope the team tries to mend this -- at least give him the opportunity.  It speaks volumes and undermines all the "character" bullcrap we've been circle-jerking about Philbin.  I hope we end up better for it and the team rallies around it.  But if not, you have to blow up the entire line and possibly the entire coaching staff that allowed this stuff to occur.

[Spider-Dan]

It bears re-emphasis:  Incognito was selected to be part of the leadership council.  (By the players?  By Philbin?  The latter would be particularly damning.)

This is a guy who has a sign on his locker that says, "There are two things Richie Incognito does not like: Taxes and Rookies".

Leadership council.

[Dave Gray]

I think that stuff is funny.  And rookie hazing, to a small extent, I'm sure builds unity.  But there is a gray area between hazing and bullying and then there's this.  This is a clear case of someone going way, incredibly over the line.

When money is changing hands, outside of that one rookie dinner, where it's known and expected by all parties, I think it's too much.  And the texting stuff is just absurd.

Don't forget -- this is a business.  Coaches are managers.  Sure, you're teaching guys to play better, but you're also their boss -- and you have to protect your employees and guarantee a safe, comfortable working environment.

[Spider-Dan]

I understand it's a joke, but I have a hard time imagining Zach, JT, or Marino putting a sign on their locker saying that they don't like rookies.  I think even Long/Bush/Dansby would have known better.

That kind of stuff is the opposite of leadership.

[Dave Gray]

^ Perhaps.

But I think you can also have some good cop/bad cop.  If Incognito mocked rookies, but other guys took them under their wing, and then after the season was over, he embraced them -- maybe that works.  I don't have all the answers.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

2) There is a failure of leadership for the Dolphins. 

While I would love to revel in the idea that this is an example of Dolphin dysfunctional and that this could not occur on my well managed NEP.

I don't think that is the case. 

It might be worse in Miami, but this is a league wide problem. 

[Pappy13]

Saying that he is "not mentally tough enough" is six of one, a half-dozen of the other. On this (and other) message boards, I'd say about 60% (but trending down, at least) of the comments from Miami fans has been somewhere along the line of "Martin is such a wimp, he can't make it in the NFL."  It shouldn't be hard to find several examples of that kind of commentary in this thread alone.

So you don't think it requires a mentally tough individual to be a starting tackle in the NFL? I do and I'm not sure after these recent events that Martin is tough enough to be a starting tackle in the NFL. Not because he told his agent what was going on after he left the team, but because he apparently didn't say anything prior to leaving the team. Yes, it would have taken some guts to stand up to Incognito and go to the authorities and tell them what was happening and to make sure that something was done about it, but that's what I would expect of a mentally tough individual.

[Pappy13]

Voicemail from Incognito to Martin in April 2013 (Martin was drafted in 2012)

If this happens to me I'm going straight to the coach and I'm showing him this and telling him make it stop. Now. Not another voice mail, text or anything else or I'm going to the NFLPA and then to the police. I would have made good on that promise as well. This was all so avoidable.

I was about 5 foot nothing in 8th grade and weighed about 80 pounds. I was one of the smallest kids in my class. I was also one of the captains when it came time to pick teams on the playground because I didn't let people take advantage of my size. One day someone got the bright idea that we should play full tackle football instead of 2 hand touch like we always played. I argued with them for a good 10 minutes that someone would get hurt, but they didn't listen to me, so they decided to play anyway. On the opening kickoff I ran down the field and buried the kick returner into the ground. He had a hard time getting up. We quit playing full tackle and went back to playing two hand touch the next play. Mental toughness has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with physical toughness. You only have what God gives you physically. Your mental makeup is all up to you.

I feel sorry for Martin, I really do, but I can't accept that he couldn't have helped prevent this as well.

[Spider-Dan]

So you don't think it requires a mentally tough individual to be a starting tackle in the NFL?

I think it requires a mentally tough person to be the best in high school and the best in college, so that you can even make it to the NFL.

The point is that Martin did take this to the authorities.  When Martin was initially declared out of the Thursday game, the word from the Dolphins was "Illness."  Do you think Philbin believed he caught the flu?  It was a cover up; nothing at all was happening on this until things started getting leaked to the media, then suddenly the wheels started churning briskly.

If you want to say Martin was a wuss for not using his fists to solve his problems (as some in this thread have implied), then fine; that's consistency, at least.  But otherwise, are you saying Martin is a pussy "not mentally tough" because he went to the authorities too soon, or not soon enough, or because he allowed himself to be bullied in the first place, or what?

Some of these guys are in the NFL because they are actually good at playing football, not because they are intergalactic badasses.  The two are not interchangeable.

[Pappy13]

I think it requires a mentally tough person to be the best in high school and the best in college, so that you can even make it to the NFL.

I think that's debateable. Sometimes physical ability alone can get you pretty far.

The point is that Martin did take this to the authorities.

Actually he didn't, he took it to his agent and they took it to the authorities it appears and only after he quit the team. If he would have done that months ago maybe he'd still be with the team.

When Martin was initially declared out of the Thursday game, the word from the Dolphins was "Illness."  Do you think Philbin believed he caught the flu?

According to the Dolphins the first thing he did after leaving the facility was check into a hospital. I'd say "Illness" was spot on.

It was a cover up;

According to whom? I've not seen this allegation yet. You just assuming this or you have some evidence to suggest someone was covering something up?

nothing at all was happening on this until things started getting leaked to the media, then suddenly the wheels started churning briskly.

Wouldn't exactly call it a leak. Martin told his agent about the abuse and his agent went to the media is my understanding. The wheels could have been churning since April at least it would appear.

If you want to say Martin was a wuss for not using his fists to solve his problems (as some in this thread have implied), then fine;

No I wouldn't, in fact just the opposite. Using his fists to solve his problems would have been just as immature as saying nothing was.

are you saying Martin is a pussy "not mentally tough" because he went to the authorities too soon

nope.

or not soon enough

Yep.

or because he allowed himself to be bullied in the first place

nope.

We clear Spider? I hope so because I'm not sure how else to make it any more clear.

Some of these guys are in the NFL because they are actually good at playing football, not because they are intergalactic badasses.  The two are not interchangeable.

So did you think I was equating mental toughness with being an intergalactic badass? Wow. I'm not sure you could have missed the mark any more with that aim. It's almost like you are purposely trying to cloud the discussion.

[Spider-Dan]

So to be clear, you're saying that Martin is "not mentally tough" (which is somehow different than just being a pussy) because he didn't go to the authorities sooner?

How can you possibly determine when he went to the authorities?

[CF DolFan]

While I would love to revel in the idea that this is an example of Dolphin dysfunctional and that this could not occur on my well managed NEP.

I don't think that is the case. 

It might be worse in Miami, but this is a league wide problem. 

One guy is mentally weak and now they think everyone is at fault but him. This is one time when I would adamantly say the victim is probably the problem.

Outside of racists remarks, which could be taken out of context, I haven't seen anything wrong. Incognito called him "big weirdo" even on his twitter account. I have friends named Pork, Fatass and Tella Tubby who are like brothers. Think they picked their nicknames? I look at Vine and in two minutes find blacks and whites making white jokes and "n" jokes with their buddies. I've also seen Ritchie stand up for Martin on the field so I don't think it was all hell for Martin. He broke down and had to face his family so he threw people under the bus.