Coaches told Incognito to toughen Martin up

[MikeO]

If Martin's visit with Philbin happened before the Code Aqua then Philbin is unemployable in the NFL,

This is where you lose me and go way overboard with this. Hell even Gregg Williams is coaching in the NFL today. Philbian is unemployable? Not even close...Give me a break!!

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Sorry, Spider, but you are blowing this up to be WAY more than it is.

1) You are the only one using the word "retaliation."  No media outlet has suggested that Philbin has twirled his thumbs in his office saying "I'll show him for missing practice... MUAHAHAHA!!"

That isn't needed.  Player misses practice.  Coach singles out said player for punishment.  A reasonable person can conclude retaliation, without addition evidence.  

2) OTA's are labeled as "optional" but are not optional.  Stars like tom Brady and Peyton Manning can miss OTA's.  Jonathan Martin is expected to attend.

That was a sticking point of the strike/lockout.  Your take is a violation of the agreement.

3) Martin missed OTA's in April, but never mentioned why or brought up a concern about being harassed until THIS WEEK.  You make it sound like Martin went to Philbin and said "Coach, Richie's being a dick to me" and Philbin said "Hey, Richie, good job, be MORE of a dick to him"

He snapped this week.  The abuse was on going.

4) The story says "coaches" asked Richie to toughen him up.  There are lots of coaches.  Doesn't specifically point out Philbin.

The buck stops here.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

This is where you lose me and go way overboard with this. Hell even Gregg Williams is coaching in the NFL today. Philbian is unemployable? Not even close...Give me a break!!

Philbian won't get a lifetime ban from the NFL. 

But that doesn't mean he gets another job.  Sal Alosi didn't get a lifetime ban and he is out of the NFL. 

Williams has an excellent record as DC and got a job as an assistant DC instead of being a DC because he is toxic.  Philbian has a mediocre record, why would any team want him? 

[MikeO]

Philbian won't get a lifetime ban from the NFL. 

But that doesn't mean he gets another job.  Sal Alosi didn't get a lifetime ban and he is out of the NFL. 

Williams has an excellent record as DC and got a job as an assistant DC instead of being a DC because he is toxic.  Philbian has a mediocre record, why would any team want him? 

He was an excellent offensive coordinator. Let's not start re-writing history now. To say no team would make him a QB coach, or a TE coach, or an OC is beyond silly.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

He was an excellent offensive coordinator. Let's not start re-writing history now. To say no team would make him a QB coach, or a TE coach, or an OC is beyond silly.

yeah, he might get a position coaching position.  but no higher. 

[Spider-Dan]

This is where you lose me and go way overboard with this. Hell even Gregg Williams is coaching in the NFL today. Philbian is unemployable? Not even close...Give me a break!!

You still don't seem to grasp the gravity of this.

Spygate was one team's unfair competitive advantage.  Outside of some politicians that have constituents in Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, and St. Louis, no one that matters gives a crap.

Bountygate was players trying to hurt other players on coaches' orders.  The NFLPA "cares" but given that it's also their players doing the headhunting, their capacity for moral outrage is somewhat limited.  Beyond that, no one that matters (again, outside of Minnesota) cares.

In this case, if it was just the bullying, NFLPA wouldn't really care.  One of their members is harassing another one; they don't have a dog in the fight.  But management retaliating against a player for exercising collectively-bargained benefits is one of the NFLPA's primary reasons for existence.  There are very few issues that they would care about more than a coach ordering retaliation (on the record) for missing a voluntary workout.

Furthermore, if this retaliation caused workplace harassment, and followed prior complaints of workplace harassment (from the same source, Incognito) this is potentially a labor law issue, and unlike Spygate or Bountygate, it's not going to be transparent shilling from losing teams' congressmen.

[MikeO]

yeah, he might get a position coaching position.  but no higher. 

Fine. But saying he is "unemployable in the NFL" is laughable!

[MikeO]

You still don't seem to grasp the gravity of this.

Spygate was one team's unfair competitive advantage.  Outside of some politicians that have constituents in Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, and St. Louis, no one that matters gives a crap.

Bountygate was players trying to hurt other players on coaches' orders.  The NFLPA "cares" but given that it's also their players doing the headhunting, their capacity for moral outrage is somewhat limited.  Beyond that, no one that matters (again, outside of Minnesota) cares.

In this case, if it was just the bullying, NFLPA wouldn't really care.  One of their members is harassing another one; they don't have a dog in the fight.  But management retaliating against a player for exercising collectively-bargained benefits is one of the NFLPA's primary reasons for existence.  There are very few issues that they would care about more than a coach ordering retaliation (on the record) for missing a voluntary workout.

Furthermore, if this retaliation caused workplace harassment, and followed prior complaints of workplace harassment (from the same source, Incognito) this is potentially a labor law issue, and unlike Spygate or Bountygate, it's not going to be transparent shilling from losing teams' congressmen.

No I get the gravity of it. But some statements people are making on this site like Philbin is unemployable in the NFL, Congress will get involved, criminal charges are coming are laughable. They really are. People may get fired yes....but this notion that guys will serve hard time or never work again in the NFL is just silly!

Some of you are just overreacting big-time. Martin wasn't physically injured. Martin is still getting paid. Martin is still on an NFL roster. Incognitio has been suspended. Now when this all shakes out Martin might get a big settlement from the Fins/NFL, the Fins entire coaching staff may be fired,it could happen, the Fins could lose draft picks as a punishment, Ross could pay a hefty fine...all of that COULD happen. But this notion Philbin will never work in the NFL again and he is unemployable (as an assistant or anything) is just f'n silly! I mean its laughable it really is.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

  There are very few issues that they would care about more than a coach ordering retaliation (on the record) for missing a voluntary workout.

This aspect of it will concern the NFLPA more than the other two scandals.  But it doesn't make it a worse scandal.  NFLPA needs to walk the same fine line it did with Bountygate as they represent both Martin and Incongtigo.

I dare say more fans cared that NE may have had an unfair competitive advantage or the Saints were purposefully trying to injure their favorite player, than that Martin got bullied. 

Congress isn't getting involved.

Worst case for the NFL, former players who was forced to pay for another team mates meal sues for reimbursement.     

[Spider-Dan]

No I get the gravity of it. But some statements people are making on this site like Philbin is unemployable in the NFL, Congress will get involved, criminal charges are coming are laughable. They really are. People may get fired yes....but this notion that guys will serve hard time or never work again in the NFL is just silly!

But you keep saying "It comes down to wins and losses!" like Philbin got a DUI or something.

If he ordered retaliation for missing a voluntary workout, and the method of retaliation itself was an illegal violation of labor law, he's done.  He will not have the opportunity to collect wins, because he will be fired before the season is up.

When I said he was "unemployable," I meant as a head coach.  Sure, some team could hire him as QB coach 5 years from now.

[MikeO]

But you keep saying "It comes down to wins and losses!" like Philbin got a DUI or something.

If he ordered retaliation for missing a voluntary workout, and the method of retaliation itself was an illegal violation of labor law, he's done.  He will not have the opportunity to collect wins, because he will be fired before the season is up.

When I said he was "unemployable," I meant as a head coach.  Sure, some team could hire him as QB coach 5 years from now.

1) yeah he has to wait 5 years to get another assistant coaching job in the NFL    That's what I mean. Silly talk that makes no sense and is laughable. Like I said what Gregg Wililams did was far worse than anything Philibin "POSSIBLY" may have done. Williams sat out 1 year, then back in the league

2) Hate to break it to ya it really does come down to wins and losses when all is said and done. If Miami goes 10-6....guess what. They ain't firing Philbin. They will do a Saints/Sean Payton let him be suspended for a year and wait for him and keep the staff in place because obviously something is working.  Now if Miami goes 5-11...yeah he is probably a gonner! If you think wins and losses plays no factor in this you are fooling yourself.

[Spider-Dan]

This aspect of it will concern the NFLPA more than the other two scandals.  But it doesn't make it a worse scandal.  NFLPA needs to walk the same fine line it did with Bountygate as they represent both Martin and Incongtigo.

Not really.  The retaliation order is all they would care about, and they would care a great deal about it.  Again, it's their reason for existence.

I dare say more fans cared that NE may have had an unfair competitive advantage or the Saints were purposefully trying to injure their favorite player, than that Martin got bullied.

Fan opinion is irrelevant.

Worst case for the NFL, former players who was forced to pay for another team mates meal sues for reimbursement.

Worst case for the NFL (and I include the Dolphins in that) is that:

- NFLPA sues them for CBA violation (or whatever the appropriate recourse is... arbitration?)
- Martin sues Dolphins for several labor law violations (harassment & extortion, retaliation from management)

[EKnight]

It's pointless for you guys to keep going back and forth. There are some people here- likely ones who think of themselves as "true diehard fans"- who are incapable of admitting wrong-doing by the organization or anyone associated with it. Even after Philbin is fired, they'll still argue that it was unfair. This is an absolute, black and white, cut and dry situation: any other workplace and there's not even a discussion. If people don't get that right off the bat, debating it for hours will not enlighten them. -EK

[MikeO]

It's pointless for you guys to keep going back and forth. There are some people here- likely ones who think of themselves as "true diehard fans"- who are incapable of admitting wrong-doing by the organization or anyone associated with it.

1) You aren't a fan at all of this team so judging others as "die-hards" is foolish by you
2) EVERYONE has admitted wrong-doing by the Fins and how this took place. What message board are you reading? But until ALL of the facts come out (which they haven't) to make absolute statements like this guy will be fired and never work in the NFL again is laughable. Or Congress needs to step in. Or people are going to jail for hate crimes over this...i mean its nonsense. None of it even makes sense.

Even after Philbin is fired, they'll still argue that it was unfair. This is an absolute, black and white, cut and dry situation: any other workplace and there's not even a discussion. If people don't get that right off the bat, debating it for hours will not enlighten them. -EK

If Philbin did something wrong and is fired nobody will argue that it is unfair. Don't "make up" stances and then come out against them. Because nobody has said if Philbin did wrong and is fired it would be unfair.

[Spider-Dan]

Like I said what Gregg Wililams did was far worse than anything Philibin "POSSIBLY" may have done.

Not from the NFLPA's perspective, it isn't.  And that has to be the primary concern of the league right now: one of their coaches may have just handed the NFLPA a club to bludgeon them with.

It's a big deal, and Philbin is no Belichick or Payton or Williams.  He does not have the history in the league to get people to just overlook this kind of stuff.