Breaking News: Ireland/Philbin may not survive Bullygate

[CF DolFan]

This is a little short-sighted. Generationally, there's such a gap between Griese and most current players, there really can't be a comparison drawn. What motivated people in the 1970s doesn't motivate people 40 years later. The things that Bob Knight used to "motivate" his players early in his career got him fired later in it. -EK

Nick Saban is very similar and people kill themselves for the guy.

Bellichick uses "old school" humor and humiliation to keep his players hungry.  He denies respect to athletes who have been given respect their entire athletic careers including Tom Brady.

After Patriots rookies are handed their playbooks, if they are fortunate, a veteran will pull them aside and prep them for the devastating beatdown that each of them invariably will experience.

Most learn to take it; some never can. Those players do not last in the Patriots’ organization.

“The idea is to take it personally,” Bruschi said. “Bill wants you to do that. You get angry, and you get embarrassed. But then you get to the point where you want to fix it, and fix it badly.”

Deion Branch said if you are looking for positive feedback to soothe your ego, New England is the wrong place to play. The idea, he said, is to push you to the brink, then reel you back in so “you can prove Bill wrong.”

“He never compliments you,” linebacker Rob Ninkovich said. “He’ll throw you a little something once in a while, but it’s never, ‘Good job.’ It’s more like, ‘Well, you did a little better with this.’”

This, from the most intellectual coach in football.

How else is Belichick supposed to motivate a guy like Tom Brady, who already has three Super Bowl rings, wealth, social status, and Giselle?  By denying him what everyone else gives him: respect.

[Pappy13]

You really don't think these guys were motivators ... much less Shula?

That's not what they were known for, no. They were terrific teachers. You either learned or you went home. End of story. They DEMANDED self motivation which is actually different from being great motivators.

Tom Landry Quote

Shula was very disciplined who was known to hold grueling, punishing practices that focused on perfect execution and technique. He sometimes made them practice 4 times a day without water

...which he wouldn't be allowed to do it today since it would be against league rules.  Shula would have a real tough time coaching in today's NFL.

and yet people like Bob Griese said ... " I was ready to follow him into battle anywhere".

Out of respect for him, not because Shula was a great motivator. Griese was a great player and would have followed any coach who forced them to be perfect. Shula wasn't a great "speech" guy, he was a fantastic "We are gonna do it over and over and over till we get it right" guy. I see Landry and Belicheck as pretty much the same thing. They lead by example not because they get up in front of the room and make an impassioned speech which is what was said in the thread. Landry was boring to listen to. Same with Belicheck. Shula had a little more personality, but it was a lot more his work ethic that he brought to the Dolphins then it was his half time or pre-game speeches. By that time his work had already been done.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Pappy13]

Bellichick uses "old school" humor and humiliation to keep his players hungry.  He denies respect to athletes who have been given respect their entire athletic careers including Tom Brady.

After Patriots rookies are handed their playbooks, if they are fortunate, a veteran will pull them aside and prep them for the devastating beatdown that each of them invariably will experience.

Most learn to take it; some never can. Those players do not last in the Patriots’ organization.

“The idea is to take it personally,” Bruschi said. “Bill wants you to do that. You get angry, and you get embarrassed. But then you get to the point where you want to fix it, and fix it badly.”

Deion Branch said if you are looking for positive feedback to soothe your ego, New England is the wrong place to play. The idea, he said, is to push you to the brink, then reel you back in so “you can prove Bill wrong.”

“He never compliments you,” linebacker Rob Ninkovich said. “He’ll throw you a little something once in a while, but it’s never, ‘Good job.’ It’s more like, ‘Well, you did a little better with this.’”

This, from the most intellectual coach in football.

How else is Belichick supposed to motivate a guy like Tom Brady, who already has three Super Bowl rings, wealth, social status, and Giselle?  By denying him what everyone else gives him: respect.

What does any of this have to do with locker room speeches? The thought process was someone overheard Philbin giving a speech and said he wasn't a motivator and therfore not a good coach. I disagreed. Nothing above has anything to do with that. This is more about teaching and guys wanting to learn. Either they do and they play or they don't and they leave. I don't think Tom Brady gets motivated because Belicheck tells him to be, rather Brady was motivated to play well and Belicheck showed him how to play well. Brady already had the motivation, Belicheck just showed him how to use it to become a great player.

[Landshark]

Thanks CF. Seeing a Dolphin fan consider Shula a non-motivator blew my mind.

Shula couldn't handle the new breed of players and didn't do well with character issues.  The end result was the 1995 season.

[EKnight]

I gotta ask, since this has been brought up- wtf do these guys need "motivation" for? The money and glory and desire to win isn't enough motivation to stay with? At THAT level? Once you're a pro athlete isn't that really a non-issue? I don't recall Larry Bird or Michael Jordan needing "motivation" from their coaches. As I recall, they were the first to practice, last to leave, and played through all kinds of injuries because they were intrinsically motivated and that was more than enough.

I won three National powerlifting titles with no coach, no teammates, no cheerleaders, and no salary because it was an amateur sport. I was working full time and in graduate school and I didn't need someone there to "motivate" me to train. And I was considered an amateur athlete. These pros actually need someone to "motivate" them? Weak. -EK

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

There is no "formula."   

BB's approach works for him.  Mangini and Daniels tried to copy it and it was a disaster.   

Pete Carroll's approach works for Pete.  But in no way shape or form resembles BB.

For Philbin to be successful he needs to be Philbin not pretend to be someone else. 

No matter what side you fall on in the debate if Martin/Incognito, it is obvious that using Incognito to "assist" Martin was a coaching mistake. 

[Pappy13]

No matter what side you fall on in the debate if Martin/Incognito, it is obvious that using Incognito to "assist" Martin was a coaching mistake. 

Hindsight is 20/20.

I don't presume to know all the facts surrounding this and I doubt any of us will ever really know what exactly happened. The NFL will do their investigation and they will probably get to about 80% of what really happened. Whatever they decide, I'll accept it. If they think Philbin should be fined or whatever for his role in all of this, then I'll believe that he should have done something different and maybe should lose his job over it. If not, then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he did anything wrong. Maybe he *could* have done things differently, but that doesn't mean that what he did was obviously wrong.

There has been nothing but accusations, contradictions, lies, half truths, speculation and misinformation from day 1. Everyone is free to make up their own mind, but to state that ANYTHING is obvious right now just isn't being impartial.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Hindsight is 20/20.

I don't presume to know all the facts surrounding this and I doubt any of us will ever really know what exactly happened. The NFL will do their investigation and they will probably get to about 80% of what really happened. Whatever they decide, I'll accept it. If they think Philbin should be fined or whatever for his role in all of this, then I'll believe that he should have done something different and maybe should lose his job over it. If not, then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he did anything wrong. Maybe he *could* have done things differently, but that doesn't mean that what he did was obviously wrong.

There has been nothing but accusations, contradictions, lies, half truths, speculation and misinformation from day 1. Everyone is free to make up their own mind, but to state that ANYTHING is obvious right now just isn't being impartial.

Here is what is OBVIOUS...the Dolphins right now are a mess. 

Was the mistake signing Incognito?  Maybe.

Was the mistake drafting Martin?  Maybe.

Was the mistake allowing certain things to go on unchecked?  Maybe.

Was the mistake not knowing enough about what was happening in the locker room?  Maybe.

The specifics are a maybe.  That the leadership of the Miami Dolphins fucked up something.... that is an absolute given. 

[Pappy13]

Here is what is OBVIOUS...the Dolphins right now are a mess.  The specifics are a maybe.  That the leadership of the Miami Dolphins fucked up something.... that is an absolute given. 

I don't know. They have won 2 out of 3 while this MESS has been going on. They don't really seem to be any more of a mess then they were when they lost 4 in a row before any of this happened. If you consider that this has been going on since last year as many have suggested then they also won 3 in a row to start the season. Did they do that without leadership? Did the leadership that was there for those 3 games disappear? Were Incognito and Martin the leaders then? Perhaps NONE of this has anything whatsoever to do with leadership and is just typical of an average team like most of the other teams in the NFL. Do the Jets only have leadership every OTHER game?

Most people are just bandwagoning and have little to no real insight into what has been going on all year in the Dolphins locker room. Sure there were grumblings from a few folks about lack of leadership before the season, but then when they went 3-0 no one was talking about a lack of leadership. Then they go 0-4 and have this mess and then everyone KNOWS it's a leadership issue. Sorry, but that's real convenient based on the circumstances, but it's not obvious, it's speculation.

What's obvious to me is that Martin has been a troubled individual since the beginning of training camp when he was contemplating leaving the team. Beyond that, I'm not really sure what is obvious.

[CF DolFan]

Shula couldn't handle the new breed of players and didn't do well with character issues.  The end result was the 1995 season.

After his wife Dorothy died he got soft ... even on his kids.

What does any of this have to do with locker room speeches? The thought process was someone overheard Philbin giving a speech and said he wasn't a motivator and therfore not a good coach. I disagreed. Nothing above has anything to do with that. This is more about teaching and guys wanting to learn. Either they do and they play or they don't and they leave. I don't think Tom Brady gets motivated because Belicheck tells him to be, rather Brady was motivated to play well and Belicheck showed him how to play well. Brady already had the motivation, Belicheck just showed him how to use it to become a great player.

Motivation is not required to include a speech. I never mentioned a speech.  If your whole point is they didn't/don't give motivational speeches inthe locker room then that's another story ... although a strange point to make given they no doubt motivate people to be their best.

I gotta ask, since this has been brought up- wtf do these guys need "motivation" for? The money and glory and desire to win isn't enough motivation to stay with? At THAT level? Once you're a pro athlete isn't that really a non-issue? I don't recall Larry Bird or Michael Jordan needing "motivation" from their coaches. As I recall, they were the first to practice, last to leave, and played through all kinds of injuries because they were intrinsically motivated and that was more than enough.

I won three National powerlifting titles with no coach, no teammates, no cheerleaders, and no salary because it was an amateur sport. I was working full time and in graduate school and I didn't need someone there to "motivate" me to train. And I was considered an amateur athlete. These pros actually need someone to "motivate" them? Weak. -EK

So EK won an amateur event means millionaires do not need to be motivated to be their best?  C'mon ... man ... sometimes I really am curious if you are who you say you are and saying something stupid like that only reinforces that.

I've competed on many different levels for numerous sports. Am friends with professional athletes and former professional athletes. Very few people, if any, don't need someone to push them.tot get their best out of them.

[Pappy13]

Motivation is not required to include a speech. I never mentioned a speech.  If your whole point is they didn't/don't give motivational speeches inthe locker room then that's another story ... although a strange point to make given they no doubt motivate people to be their best.

You said this...

Most of us don't like Saban because he bailed on us but the truth is he was a good "coach".  When he spoke players listened. Those of us that had a chance to meet him and hear him talk found him motivational. The kind of guy who could tell you to run through a wall and make you believe you could do it. I had a high school coach like that. Bill Bellichick is like that and so is Tony Dungy but in a friendlier package. That's the coach we need. Someone who not only teaches but inspires his players. As much as I like Joe he isn't that guy.

And then Hordman said this...

My wife says he looks like a high school principal.  I played the locker room speech he gave after the IND win, very uninspiring, almost scripted.  He looked down at a scrap piece of paper he had in his hand, as if to remember what just happened in the game he played not more than 20 minutes ago.  The speech didn't move me and it didn't seem to move the players IMO.  He talked very robotic and nothing seemed to come from the heart. 

She watched it and then said "Get rid of him".  LOL

I took both of these comments to be cut from the same cloth that basically that a good coach was a good motivator. I quoted Hordman when I responded, so it was pretty clear which comments I was referring to.

Regardless, I stand by my comments that I don't think Shula, Landry, Saban or Belicheck are all that motivational, they are good football coaches which to me means they are good teachers of the game of football. These guys don't motivate players to play well, they take self motivated, athletic players and teach them how to make the most of their talents.

[EKnight]

CF- And I've trained alongside pro bodybuilders and powerlifters and trained a current NFL tackle. None of them ever needed any motivation. Refer back to Bird and Jordan.

You've competed at numerous levels? High school? Pee wee league? AAU? Honestly, unless you were nationally ranked for multiple years, please don't compare your background and mine. Olympic athletes are amateurs as well. That doesn't diminish what they do. And my national records and placings are still accessible on the net. I have no need to "prove" that I am who I say I am. -EK

[CF DolFan]

CF- And I've trained alongside pro bodybuilders and powerlifters and trained a current NFL tackle. None of them ever needed any motivation. Refer back to Bird and Jordan.

You've competed at numerous levels? High school? Pee wee league? AAU? Honestly, unless you were nationally ranked for multiple years, please don't compare your background and mine. And my national records and placings are still accessible on the net. I have no need to "prove" that I am who I say I am. -EK

Bird and Jordon. That settles it. I can't figure out why everyone isn't just as talented? 

I still think you're a phony. You're not the only one here to make up a complete identity.   

I would list my creds but I don't need to be an internet hero. 

[EKnight]

Nothing else to fuel your argument now besides personal attacks? Well simply tell me what it would take to convince you. I'll link the meet results, the Monster Muscle magazine pic of my triple body weight bench press, my personal website, whatever you want. It's all out there publicly, but I'll save you the trouble. What's in it for me? -EK

[EKnight]

^^this actually made me laugh, Mike. Thanks for the lolz. I might be a jerk, an a-hole, a hard-headed, disputatious jackass and a (gasp) Panthers can, but what possible motive would I have for making that stuff up? And of all the things to make up, why that? It's fairly odd and specific. So, whatever. I have nothing to hide. If CF wants "proof" I'll give him whatever he's asking for. If not can we get back on topic? I'm sorry I ever mentioned athletes and motivation. I didn't mean to derail everything. -EK