Robert Mathis Suspended

[EKnight]

You are talking in circles now and arguing for the sake of arguing. I never changed my story go back and read the thread its what I have said all day. It's a PED. It's a performance enhancer that has been prohibited for years as the league has clearly stated. Pretty cut and dry to me.

As a doctor on the NFLN said the other night, by taking this drug your testosterone levels increases....that is a PED! How much more simple is it than that?!  If taking this drug lowers your estrogen than obviously your testosterone levels will be higher. That's what a PED is, artificially enhancing your testosterone levels! Giving yourself a boost!  In the world of sports that's cheating!

I'm no doctor don't pretend to be. You can cut and paste from Wikipedia and other sites and try to pass it off as your own knowledge but the bottom line is Mathis tried to cheat its plain and simple. You want to spin this into something its not fine, but he failed a PED test by taking a PED. Case closed!

Never changed your story? Now you're flat lying.

They claim it boosts testosterone.

So you went from "the NFL doctors say it boosts testosterone," to "an expert on the NFL network (but no one from the league) says it does, but my quote from the league doesn't say that at all."

You understand that not all PEDs raise test levels, right? Ephedrine is on that list for being a stimulant. In fact, there's more things on that list that DON'T raise test than do. Your ignorance seems to know no boundaries. -EK

[MikeO]

So, yes the doctor you are quoting is technically right, in that it will raise test levels.

And that is cheating! He raised his levels That's all I have said. Mathis is guilty he got caught. Debate over!

[Brian Fein]

Mike, sorry buddy, I normally think you are a pretty good poster but you and Hoodie are flat out wrong here.

You're telling me that chlomid, a drug that helps women ovulate, ALSO doubles your sack numbers?  Wow.  How ridiculous.

Chlomid does not boost testosterone.  It reduces estrogen.  Different.  Mathis did NOT test positive for anabolics.  NFL calls it a "performance enhancer" because it is on their list.  Its a convenient label. 

Again, no one is claiming that taking Chlomid is OK - it is CLEARLY against the policy.  But the reason for taking it, while NOT taking other steroids, can only be for fertility challenges.  That's a fact, and somehow you can't grasp that. 

Sorry Mike, stop arguing, cause you're wrong.

[MikeO]

Mike, sorry buddy, I normally think you are a pretty good poster but you and Hoodie are flat out wrong here.

You're telling me that chlomid, a drug that helps women ovulate, ALSO doubles your sack numbers?  Wow.  How ridiculous.

Chlomid does not boost testosterone.  It reduces estrogen.  Different.  Mathis did NOT test positive for anabolics.  NFL calls it a "performance enhancer" because it is on their list.  Its a convenient label. 

Again, no one is claiming that taking Chlomid is OK - it is CLEARLY against the policy.  But the reason for taking it, while NOT taking other steroids, can only be for fertility challenges.  That's a fact, and somehow you can't grasp that. 

Sorry Mike, stop arguing, cause you're wrong.

I'm wrong yet the NFL agrees with me. Yeah, ok

[Brian Fein]

I don't understand why you keep saying the NFL agrees with you.  I also don't understand why you think we are all saying Mathis is innocent. 

MATHIS TOOK A DRUG THAT IS ON THE BANNED DRUGS LIST.  The NFL said so, Mathis said so, everyone on this thread said so.  No one is disputing that.

The REASON Mathis took the drug has NEVER been broached by the NFL.  You're arguing that he did it because he wanted more sacks.  In fact, his statement was NEVER refuted by the NFL, and based on the surrounding circumstances, is likely true.

Think what you want.  You're being ignorant.

[MikeO]

I am claiming he did to get a competitive edge and he is lying. He cheated and tried altering his testosterone levels to get an edge.  Period, that's cheating. I'm not going to spend a 2nd day going In circles over this. Your not changing my mind and I won't change yours.  The facts back me up but you disagree and see it differently....fine.i think you are ignorant and naive you think I am. Is what it is.

[Brian Fein]

You can think what you want - but the facts don't back you up.

[Sunstroke]

You can think what you want - but the facts don't back you up.

As long as he thinks it, there can be no contesting its ultimate truth...

[MikeO]

You can think what you want - but the facts don't back you up.

We see the "facts" very differently.  He is a serial cheater and what he took was to give him a competitive edge.  

[MikeO]

As long as he thinks it, there can be no contesting its ultimate truth...

I'm not the only one who thinks it stroke.

[Brian Fein]

We see the "facts" very differently.  He is a serial cheater and what he took was to give him a competitive edge.  

OK, agree to disagree.  You're free to live in ignorance, thinking that a fertility drug gives football players a competitive advantage.

[MikeO]

OK, agree to disagree.  You're free to live in ignorance, thinking that a fertility drug gives football players a competitive advantage.

You are free to live in ignorance as well and be naive. I'm sure this won't be the last failed drug test by Mathis so we can continue this conversation when he fails his next one. He has a history of trying to get a competitive edge through cheating

[EKnight]

Seriously, MikeO, since I've asked you this several times, how about actually addressing it- the facts don't back you up. I provided the list of banned substances. Clomid is listed as an anti-estrogen. How is that backing you up at all?

It elevates test levels BACK TO WITHIN NORMAL RANGE.

Are you even aware that when they run a drug test, they don't just look for compounds, they also look for testosterone to epitest ratio. Normal is considered 6:1. If Clomid elevated his test levels like an anabolic agent, they would have come back as 200:1 or 1000:1 like Ryan Braun's did. How do you explain that the drug that you insist elevated his test levels didn't return an elevated blood serum test:epitest result? Must be magic! -EK

[masterfins]

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that the reason chlomid is on the banned substance list is because it helps mask other PED's, not because it's an actually PED.  Is that right???  Now I don't know whether Mathis is telling the truth, I would lean towards the probabilty that he is telling the truth.  However, I can't argue with the NFL's penalty due to his prior infractions, if this was a first time issue I doubt the penalty would have been so severe.

[David Fulcher]

While I don't normally post here much of late, I still stalk, and I've just really gotta post since this is actually in my realm in a couple of ways, both as a physician (seriously...Internal Medicine at UAB) and a gym *rat*, or as much as I can be nowadays.

Sorry, Mike, but the others are right about Clomifene.  It is indeed used for infertility issues, and I have seen it used in males.  While it is true that it can and is used by bodybuilders to inhibit the excess estogen production in the setting of a heightened androgenic state, like pondwater stated, if someone was using it for those purposes, you would almost certainly and invariably see an increased testosterone level, much above baseline.  It doesn't sound like that was the case with Mathis, though I agree, he made a mistake by not looking into matters further himself since regardless of whether Clomid would "boost" his testosterone or not (not), it was still on the NFL's banned list.

And don't hang your hat too much on medications used for indications that aren't FDA approved....you'd probably be very shocked how often that indeed is the case in the field of medicine.