Jury is deliberating in the Aaron Hernandez trial

[ArtieChokePhin]

^ What were the motives you heard?

One of them is that Lloyd knew about the 2012 murders that Hernandez committed and was going to spill his guts to the police

[Phishfan]

One was the double murder. I don't buy that one as much. If Lloyd was going to the police on Hernandez, why would he have allowed himself to get  into a car late night like that?

The other was that Hernandez had been disrespected by Lloyd during a nightclub argument. I personally buy that one a bit more.

All the shootings Hernandez were accused of had that aspect to them. Bradley, the dealer, was shot after an argument about the tab at a strip club and his insistence on going back to get his cell. Abreu and Furtado were shot apparently from an argument stemming from a spilled drink. Hernandez just seems like a guy who flies off the handle and pulls out a gun. It doesn't seem like an execution shooting to me because they left too much evidence. There was no plan of cleanup. It feels like an in the moment shooting to me.

[Pappy13]

I guess shooting someone is extremely ferocious or cruel. But who shot the guy? It just kills me. No one knows. That's reasonable doubt.

Not if you drove the guy there knowing full well that he was going to be shot even if you weren't going to be doing the shooting.

[MikeO]

Lloyd wasn't just shot once. He was shot 6 times. That's where the "cruel" part played into this it was reported

[Pappy13]

If you do, you have reasonable doubt regarding the M&Ms, and you would have it here too. I just think you definitely have reasonable doubt here.

You're a defense attorney's wet dream. If Hernandez drove to the site knowing that the guy was gonna die there, then it doesn't matter one bit whether he pulled the trigger or not.

[BuccaneerBrad]

I completely agree with Dave on this one.

Hell, my wife is a Bucs fan and if they draft Winston (which is looking likely) she is defecting to the Dolphins.  There were rumors at one point of Vick coming to Tampa a few years back and she said the same thing.  Now, I don't think Winston's "crimes" are nearly as arduous as Vick's, and it might stem from her love of dogs (we foster rescues) and her hate for FSU, plus Winston being an accused rapist.

Eh, I'm all over the place.  Point is, I couldn't root for the Dolphins either if Vick were our QB.  I wouldn't like Hernandez on our team, but wouldn't stop rooting for Miami either if he hypothetically ended here.

Not sure why she would defect, considering their getting one of the two best QB prospects to come out of college in a long long time.  Considering all Jameis did was steal crab legs and shout vulgarities in public (the latter of which isn't even a crime), I'd take him in a heartbeat if I was Jason Licht.   Don't even think about labelling him a rapist because I don't believe he raped that girl.  He was investigated, and cleared by three different entities and the girl kept changing her story.  Now she's filed suit against him.  It all looks like a money grab to me. 

The Bucs have the skill players in position for Jameis to put up big numbers.  But unless they want to end up like the 2013 Dolphins, they need to rebuild that O-Line.

[Spider-Dan]

You're a defense attorney's wet dream. If Hernandez drove to the site knowing that the guy was gonna die there, then it doesn't matter one bit whether he pulled the trigger or not.

Unfortunately, you don't realize the irony of your statement.

SCFinfan is a defense attorney, and there's an awful lot of laymen in this thread trying to explain to him how the law works.

[Sunstroke]

Unfortunately, you don't realize the irony of your statement.

SCFinfan is a defense attorney, and there's an awful lot of laymen in this thread trying to explain to him how the law works.

Have to admit that I was getting a bit of a chuckle out of that as well. I'm up for arguing (read: debating, having a heated discussion with) SCFinfan on a lot of things, but the letter of the law is definitely not one of them.

[Pappy13]

SCFinfan is a defense attorney

Well that explains a lot. Guess if I were an attorney I'd be a prosecutor. I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but I don't have to see you fire the weapon to have no doubt you participated in his murder.

[MikeO]

Well that explains a lot. Guess if I were an attorney I'd be a prosecutor. I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but I don't have to see you fire the weapon to have no doubt you wanted him dead.

That's the point. Just because there isn't video of the actual defendant committing the crime doesn't mean he didn't do it! The evidence here was overwhelming that he was guilty and the jury got it right.

[Tenshot13]

Not sure why she would defect, considering their getting one of the two best QB prospects to come out of college in a long long time.  Considering all Jameis did was steal crab legs and shout vulgarities in public (the latter of which isn't even a crime), I'd take him in a heartbeat if I was Jason Licht.   Don't even think about labelling him a rapist because I don't believe he raped that girl.  He was investigated, and cleared by three different entities and the girl kept changing her story.  Now she's filed suit against him.  It all looks like a money grab to me. 

The Bucs have the skill players in position for Jameis to put up big numbers.  But unless they want to end up like the 2013 Dolphins, they need to rebuild that O-Line.

Nov. 25, 2012: A woman calls 911 to report that there are two men on a bike path on the Florida State University campus with what appears to be a black, long-barreled pistol. Police respond and draw their guns as they approach Jameis Winston and his roommate and teammate, Chris Casher, and ultimately handcuff them. The two tell the officer they were shooting at squirrels with a pellet gun, and they are released without charges being filed.

Nov. 25, 2012: A few hours after the incident on the bike path, Winston, Casher and two other Florida State players, Mario Edwards and Kenneth “P.J.” Williams, allegedly engage in a BB- and pellet-gun battle at their apartment house, inflicting an estimated $4,000 in damage. Management at the apartment house declines to press criminal charges after an FSU athletic official vows that the players will pay for the damage.

Dec. 7, 2012: Winston is accused of raping a woman at his off-campus apartment. The woman reports the assault to police that day and five weeks later calls a detective and identifies Winston as her attacker after seeing him in a class. Tallahassee police drop the investigation, contending the woman has refused to cooperate, then revive it nine months later and sent it to State Attorney Willie Meggs. Meggs conducts a new investigation but concludes that there is not enough evidence to file criminal charges. Winston’s lawyer contends the sexual encounter was consensual.  The U.S. Department of Education later launches a federal investigation of the school’s handling of the incident after questions arise about whether Florida State followed the provisions of Title IX, and in August 2014 the school launches an investigation of Winston under the student code of conduct.

July 21, 2013: Winston is accused of entering a Burger King in Tallahassee and helping himself to soda from the fountain machine without paying for it. A restaurant employee later tells police she gave Winston a cup of water but that he poured the water out and helped himself to several cups of soda despite her objections. No charges are filed.

April 29, 2014: Winston is accused of stealing $32.72 worth of crab legs from a Tallahassee supermarket. He is given a civil citation that allows him to perform community service and is suspended from the FSU baseball team until he completes that work. Winston tells police he “forgot” to pay for the crab legs and publicly apologizes.

May 20, 2014: Winston is expected at a code-of-conduct hearing for Chris Casher and Ronald Darby, two FSU teammates who alleged the witnessed a portion of the sexual encounter involving the quarterback and the woman who accused him of rape. They are both accused of violating school rules. Winston does not show up for the hearing, and his lawyer contends that no one from the school ever asked him to be there – something that is disputed by attorneys involved in the process. However, FSU officials later acknowledge that they have no way to force a witness to attend a code-of-conduct hearing.

Sept. 16, 2014: Winston is seen by several students jumping up on a table on campus and screaming a sexually charged expletive-laced phrase that was made popular on the internet. FSU head football coach Jimbo Fisher suspends Winston for the first half of the team’s upcoming game with Clemson, and school officials vow that he will be subject to “internal discipline” – most likely under the school’s code of conduct. Winston apologizes.

Oct. 13, 2014: ESPN reports that FSU's compliance department is investigating whether Winston accepted money in exchange for autographs. The university's athletic director issues a statement on Oct. 17, explaining that the compliance staff looking into whether Jameis Winston accepted unauthorized benefits for his autograph has "no information indicating that he accepted payment for items reported to bear his signature, thereby compromising his athletics eligibility."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-incidents-timeline-091714

Where there's smoke, there's fire.  That's a long list of stupid shit for any one person to do.  At the very worst, he's a rapist.  At the very best, he's a giant douche bag.  Easy to abandon ship when the face of your franchise has a rap sheet like this.

[Spider-Dan]

Well that explains a lot. Guess if I were an attorney I'd be a prosecutor. I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but I don't have to see you fire the weapon to have no doubt you participated in his murder.

But he wasn't charged with participating in the murder.  He was charged with actually committing the murder (murder 1).  Since he was clearly acting as part of a group, either everyone in that group should also be getting murder 1 charges, or the prosecution believed that Hernandez was the trigger man.  That's what's unproven.

It's just like with the Laci Peterson or Caylee Anthony cases... you can think there's been a murder all you want, but unless you find a body, you haven't actually proven that a murder has occurred.

[Phishfan]

BSince he was clearly acting as part of a group, either everyone in that group should also be getting murder 1 charges, or the prosecution believed that Hernandez was the trigger man.  That's what's unproven.

The entire group was charged with murder, eventually. The prosecution has never set out to prove there was a single "trigger" man I don't believe. They are all going to go down on this one.

[BuccaneerBrad]

Nov. 25, 2012: A woman calls 911 to report that there are two men on a bike path on the Florida State University campus with what appears to be a black, long-barreled pistol. Police respond and draw their guns as they approach Jameis Winston and his roommate and teammate, Chris Casher, and ultimately handcuff them. The two tell the officer they were shooting at squirrels with a pellet gun, and they are released without charges being filed.

Nov. 25, 2012: A few hours after the incident on the bike path, Winston, Casher and two other Florida State players, Mario Edwards and Kenneth “P.J.” Williams, allegedly engage in a BB- and pellet-gun battle at their apartment house, inflicting an estimated $4,000 in damage. Management at the apartment house declines to press criminal charges after an FSU athletic official vows that the players will pay for the damage.

Dec. 7, 2012: Winston is accused of raping a woman at his off-campus apartment. The woman reports the assault to police that day and five weeks later calls a detective and identifies Winston as her attacker after seeing him in a class. Tallahassee police drop the investigation, contending the woman has refused to cooperate, then revive it nine months later and sent it to State Attorney Willie Meggs. Meggs conducts a new investigation but concludes that there is not enough evidence to file criminal charges. Winston’s lawyer contends the sexual encounter was consensual.  The U.S. Department of Education later launches a federal investigation of the school’s handling of the incident after questions arise about whether Florida State followed the provisions of Title IX, and in August 2014 the school launches an investigation of Winston under the student code of conduct.

July 21, 2013: Winston is accused of entering a Burger King in Tallahassee and helping himself to soda from the fountain machine without paying for it. A restaurant employee later tells police she gave Winston a cup of water but that he poured the water out and helped himself to several cups of soda despite her objections. No charges are filed.

April 29, 2014: Winston is accused of stealing $32.72 worth of crab legs from a Tallahassee supermarket. He is given a civil citation that allows him to perform community service and is suspended from the FSU baseball team until he completes that work. Winston tells police he “forgot” to pay for the crab legs and publicly apologizes.

May 20, 2014: Winston is expected at a code-of-conduct hearing for Chris Casher and Ronald Darby, two FSU teammates who alleged the witnessed a portion of the sexual encounter involving the quarterback and the woman who accused him of rape. They are both accused of violating school rules. Winston does not show up for the hearing, and his lawyer contends that no one from the school ever asked him to be there – something that is disputed by attorneys involved in the process. However, FSU officials later acknowledge that they have no way to force a witness to attend a code-of-conduct hearing.

Sept. 16, 2014: Winston is seen by several students jumping up on a table on campus and screaming a sexually charged expletive-laced phrase that was made popular on the internet. FSU head football coach Jimbo Fisher suspends Winston for the first half of the team’s upcoming game with Clemson, and school officials vow that he will be subject to “internal discipline” – most likely under the school’s code of conduct. Winston apologizes.

Oct. 13, 2014: ESPN reports that FSU's compliance department is investigating whether Winston accepted money in exchange for autographs. The university's athletic director issues a statement on Oct. 17, explaining that the compliance staff looking into whether Jameis Winston accepted unauthorized benefits for his autograph has "no information indicating that he accepted payment for items reported to bear his signature, thereby compromising his athletics eligibility."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-incidents-timeline-091714

Where there's smoke, there's fire.  That's a long list of stupid shit for any one person to do.  At the very worst, he's a rapist.  At the very best, he's a giant douche bag.  Easy to abandon ship when the face of your franchise has a rap sheet like this.

And all of it was petty shit.  What a lot of the major media outlets aren't saying is that the girl changed her story several times.  And that's why the police dropped the investigation at some point.  As for the autographs, it turns out a lot of those signatures that were sold for money were forgeries.    Where were the media outlets to stand up for this kid when that came out?

The BB gun incident, soda incident, and crab leg theft were all petty stuff compared to what some guys who still play in the NFL have done.  And the shouting vulgarities isn't even a crime last I checked.  This kid has amazing field vision and an uncanny ability to make precision throws into extrmely tight windows.  He blew everyone away at the Scouting Combine and at the Pro Day.  There's a reason why Lovie Smith brought in Dirk Koetter as his offensive coordinator and not Marc Trestman.  He wants a traditional pro style QB to run his offense, not a running spread option QB.  Not very many of those have had success in the NFL.

[Tenshot13]

He's still a douchebag. That's my point. When the face of your franchise does this kind of stuff it's differemt then say a TE. QBs are leaders. His actions make him anything but one.