Baltimore Riots

[Spider-Dan]

pondwater, a bunch of weed charges do not justify or excuse police brutality.

If Gray were white, it is unlikely that the police would have been stopping him to discover illegal drugs, because the police essentially don't care if white people (or, more accurately, people in white neighborhoods) have drugs.  So your argument that he earned this brutality because of his life as a criminal is somewhat circular: his criminal career would likely have been dramatically reduced if he wasn't being stopped all the time based on the color of his skin.

This is the key problem: white people use drugs just as much as black people, but while blacks are developing extensive criminal histories (due to being stopped all the time), whites are walking around free and clear.  This is what happens when law enforcement targets one group over another.

[Dave Gray]

The reasons for criminal acts don't matter, it all boils down to free will and personal choice.

This is the part I don't agree with.  I am not defending criminal behavior; but there are reasons that it is prevalent in that culture.

But it's not that black people are thugs.  It's that you're going to get thugs from ignorance, a lack of education, poverty, oppression, etc.  It's a cycle that goes way back to slavery.  The percent chance of you growing up to uneducated parents in the hood with drugs and violence, trying to get a job that pays a living wage, is so much less than if you have a stable environment and all the opportunities that come from being white and middle-class.

It doesn't make rioting OK.  But there are deep seeded issues that tie back to slavery and the civil rights movement and poverty of an entire culture.

[Rich]

This is the part I don't agree with.  I am not defending criminal behavior; but there are reasons that it is prevalent in that culture.

But it's not that black people are thugs.  It's that you're going to get thugs from ignorance, a lack of education, poverty, oppression, etc.  It's a cycle that goes way back to slavery.  The percent chance of you growing up to uneducated parents in the hood with drugs and violence, trying to get a job that pays a living wage, is so much less than if you have a stable environment and all the opportunities that come from being white and middle-class.

It doesn't make rioting OK.  But there are deep seeded issues that tie back to slavery and the civil rights movement and poverty of an entire culture.

But many people are able to break the cycle, so it can be done. So break it, stop making excuses.

[Spider-Dan]

A free pair of bootstraps to every poor person.  Just pick yourself up with them!

It seems somewhat relevant to mention that it's a bit easier to pick yourself up when you aren't being harassed by the police for no reason at every turn.

[Rich]

If Gray were white, it is unlikely that the police would have been stopping him to discover illegal drugs, because the police essentially don't care if white people (or, more accurately, people in white neighborhoods) have drugs.

You present this assumption as a statement of act, but have no way to back it up.

[Rich]

A free pair of bootstraps to every poor person.  Just pick yourself up with them!

It seems somewhat relevant to mention that it's a bit easier to pick yourself up when you aren't being harassed by the police for no reason at every turn.

Living in bad neighborhoods and being harassed by cops isn't exclusive to blacks.

I know this first hand.

[Spider-Dan]

It's not exclusive to blacks; poor whites are also harassed, but not quite as much as poor blacks.

As for my "statement of fact": again, whites use drugs at the same rate as blacks, but blacks have a far higher rate of arrest and conviction.  Do you have some other explanation?

[pondwater]

His life choices may have caused him to run and be arrested. But his life choices aren't the reason his spine was severed while in police custody. His life choices didn't fold him up like a lawn chair.

As has been mentioned by you

A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

The prisoner, who is currently in jail, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him. His statement is contained in an application for a search warrant, which is sealed by the court. The Post was given the document under the condition that the prisoner not be named because the person who provided it feared for the inmate’s safety.

^^^You cannot just dismiss this persons statement. His statement is more valid than anyone's at this point. At the end of the day, Freddie Gray put himself into this situation.

Who runs from the police? Criminals run from the police. And if you run from the police, they are more prone to use violence to subdue you. Any 10 year old that watches "COPS" could tell you that.

[Rich]

It's not exclusive to blacks; poor whites are also harassed, but not quite as much as poor blacks.

And Hispanics?

As for my "statement of fact": again, whites use drugs at the same rate as blacks, but blacks have a far higher rate of arrest and conviction.  Do you have some other explanation?

So you're answering a question with a question. It means you have no answer.

[Rich]

As has been mentioned by you

I am not the video of the arrest.

[pondwater]

pondwater, a bunch of weed charges do not justify or excuse police brutality.

March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing

Within the past 90 days it looks like he has some issues a little more violent than just "weed charges"

[pondwater]

This is the part I don't agree with.  I am not defending criminal behavior; but there are reasons that it is prevalent in that culture.

But it's not that black people are thugs.  It's that you're going to get thugs from ignorance, a lack of education, poverty, oppression, etc.  It's a cycle that goes way back to slavery.  The percent chance of you growing up to uneducated parents in the hood with drugs and violence, trying to get a job that pays a living wage, is so much less than if you have a stable environment and all the opportunities that come from being white and middle-class.

It doesn't make rioting OK.  But there are deep seeded issues that tie back to slavery and the civil rights movement and poverty of an entire culture.

Life sucks. Life's not fair. But that's no excuse to be a career criminal, run from the police, or burn your city down when shit doesn't go the way you think it should.

[Cathal]

But many people are able to break the cycle, so it can be done. So break it, stop making excuses.

Many people can break it but not enough to actually turn the tide against it. There is a huge problem in these poor neighborhoods and it has to be solved by the government (I know people are going to flip over that statement), unless you can get a ton of people to do it themselves. It isn't going to happen overnight.

[pondwater]

I am not the video of the arrest.

No, but you brought up the statement of the other inmate riding in the paddy wagon. We cannot just disqualify his statement. In fact, unless something else comes out, his statement is probably the most useful at this point in time.

[Spider-Dan]

You cannot just dismiss this persons statement. His statement is more valid than anyone's at this point. At the end of the day, Freddie Gray put himself into this situation.

So the argument you are going with is that... Freddie Gray crushed his own larynx and severed his own spine.  OK, then.

It does seem somewhat inconsistent for you to say that Freddie Gray's history as a criminal means he brought this brutality on himself... right before you cite the statement of another accused criminal as the "most valid statement" in this incident.