Baltimore Riots

[Rich]

So the argument you are going with is that... Freddie Gray crushed his own larynx and severed his own spine.  OK, then.

It does seem somewhat inconsistent for you to say that Freddie Gray's history as a criminal means he brought this brutality on himself... right before you cite the statement of another accused criminal as the "most valid statement" in this incident.

BREAKING NEWS: Preliminary findings show Freddie Gray suffered head injury in police transport van


Read more: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2015/04/breaking-news-no-evidence-found-that-freddie-gray-s-death-was-result-of-police-who-arrested-him-prob.html#ixzz3Yp4UksY2
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http://www.wjla.com/articles/2015/04/breaking-news-no-evidence-found-that-freddie-gray-s-death-was-result-of-police-who-arrested-him-prob.html

[Dave Gray]

It doesn't matter what people have done or what their crime is.  Police aren't judges.  They aren't there to inflict punishment.  This kind of behavior is threat to the civil rights of all of us.

[Rich]

No, but you brought up the statement of the other inmate riding in the paddy wagon. We cannot just disqualify his statement. In fact, unless something else comes out, his statement is probably the most useful at this point in time.

We cannot disqualify it nor can we take it as fact. It goes both ways.

However, the video of his arrest is irrefutable visual evidence. That trumps the statement of someone who may or may not be lying.

[Rich]

It doesn't matter what people have done or what their crime is.  Police aren't judges.  They aren't there to inflict punishment.  This kind of behavior is threat to the civil rights of all of us.

Conversely, the public shouldn't be a judge either. There has been a rush to judgment on a lot of these cases, but then the facts come out (see Ferguson) and they prove the rush to judgment was wrong.

That kind of rushing to judgment is a threat to our civil society.

[Spider-Dan]

And Hispanics?

They are excessively targeted by law enforcement as well, though I don't see how that affects the discussion.  I have no objection to Latinos pointing out that they are also unfairly maligned by our justice system.

So you're answering a question with a question. It means you have no answer.

I already provided an answer:  the explanation for why blacks have the same drug usage rates as whites but much higher arrest/conviction rates is because law enforcement has a racial (and socioeconomic) bias in enforcing the law.

You object to my explanation, so I am asking you for your explanation as to the disparity in statistics.  Why are whites arrested/convicted for drugs at a far lower rate than blacks, if the system is not biased in their favor?

Conversely, the public shouldn't be a judge either.

False equivalence.  Police are "acting like judges" in the sense that they are carrying out their own sentences (i.e. brutality).  The public is "acting like judges" in that they are publicly questioning the actions of the officers.  Those two things are not remotely comparable, and in the one case where they are comparable (rioters attacking police), all parties have roundly denounced the rioters.

In contrast, we have people in this thread vehemently defending police brutality.

[Rich]

They are excessively targeted by law enforcement as well, though I don't see how that affects the discussion.

And yet the crime rate in the Hispanic communities is significantly lower.

[Rich]

You object to my explanation, so I am asking you for your explanation as to the disparity in statistics.  Why are whites arrested/convicted for drugs at a far lower rate than blacks, if the system is not biased in their favor?

There could be a hundred different reasons why. Are whites more discreet or careful with their drug use? If drug use is occuring in neighborhoods with lower crime rates, are less cops around?

False equivalence.

No it's not. People are making their minds up before getting all the facts and then a police officer who did nothing wrong is forced to leave his job and change his entire life. There are repurcussions to that individual because the public made up their mind about what happened before knowing what happened.

You're only looking at one aspect of this issue.

[Spider-Dan]

And yet the crime rate in the Hispanic communities is significantly lower.

...so?

Explain the point you are making more clearly.  I am unsure how Hispanic crime rates explains away the vast gulf between white and black conviction rates.

[Rich]

...so?

Explain the point you are making more clearly.  I am unsure how Hispanic crime rates explains away the vast gulf between white and black conviction rates.

If there are Hispanics growing up in bad neighborhoods and facing harassment from cops (you admitted this earlier), why aren't they seeing the same types of poverty levels and incarceration rates? They are the largest percentage of immigrants by far, so on average they haven't been here as long, and yet by all measurable data they seem to be assimilating faster and in a shorter amount of time.

Could it be that the difference exists within the cultures and the societal and family structures? Is that a component of it?

Hispanics traditionally are more family-oriented and many talk about the breakdown of the black family. I think that plays a role.

I also know many blacks who grew up in less than ideal situations, but due to a strong family structure didn't fall into the same traps.

My point is, don't just blame the system. As Dave stated, the problem is a myriad of things and focusing on one or two things takes away responsibility from the internal issues that exist within a specific community.

I repeat again, you're only looking at one aspect of this. It just so happens to be the aspect that allows the leeway in removing personal responsibility.

[Spider-Dan]

Are whites more discreet or careful with their drug use? If drug use is occuring in neighborhoods with lower crime rates, are less cops around?

You literally just said that answering a question with a question means you have no answer.

The questions you have offered are circular.  It's easy to be more discreet when cops aren't enforcing the law, and reduced enforcement of the law in a neighborhood necessarily means that the crime rates will be lower.

Again, the actual crimes are being committed at the SAME rate, yet one group is labeled as criminals in a crime-ridden neighborhood, while the other is left free and clear, due solely to the decision by police to selectively enforce the law.

If there are Hispanics growing up in bad neighborhoods and facing harassment from cops (you admitted this earlier), why aren't they seeing the same types of poverty levels and incarceration rates?

Maybe they aren't being targeted as heavily.
Maybe they are committing less crimes.
Neither one is particularly relevant to the gulf between enforcement of the law on whites and blacks.

My point is, don't just blame the system.

I fail to see how a strong family structure can reduce the problem of police brutality, particularly when people are being killed after having broken no law.

What law did John Crawford break when he was killed?
What law did Tamir Rice break when he was killed?

[pondwater]

...so?

Explain the point you are making more clearly.  I am unsure how Hispanic crime rates explains away the vast gulf between white and black conviction rates.

Well according to your quote below, Hispanics are excessively targeted by law enforcement also.

They are excessively targeted by law enforcement as well
In contrast, we have people in this thread vehemently defending police brutality.

However, if that's the case. According to the census bureau, Black or African American make up 13.2% of the population and Hispanic or Latino make up 17.1% of the population. So according to your theory, it would stand to reason that Hispanic or Latino would have higher incarceration rates. However, in reality, incarceration rates for blacks is over 250% to that of Hispanics and Latinos.

[Spider-Dan]

I have yet to make any claim that Hispanics and blacks commit specific crimes at the same rate (as I have with whites and blacks), so I don't see where you're going with this line of logic.

Whatever it takes to avoid discussing police brutality, I suppose.

[pondwater]

I have yet to make any claim that Hispanics and blacks commit specific crimes at the same rate (as I have with whites and blacks), so I don't see where you're going with this line of logic.

Whatever it takes to avoid discussing police brutality, I suppose.

Why exclude Hispanics? Hispanics are supposedly(by you) targeted by police, just like you say blacks are. If that's the case, their numbers should be somewhat similar. But they are not. Also, since Hispanics are targeted more, shouldn't they be getting killed by police to some extent just like blacks? That's why it matters.

[Spider-Dan]

Their numbers would only be similar if they were committing crimes at the same rate and law enforcement was targeting them at the same rate, two claims which I have never made.  So you're left arguing against a position that no one is taking.

I'm waiting for you to explain how Freddie Gray's criminal history justifies police brutality.  Is lethal violence against unarmed suspects acceptable if said suspect has a rap sheet?

[pondwater]

Their numbers would only be similar if they were committing crimes at the same rate and law enforcement was targeting them at the same rate, two claims which I have never made.  So you're left arguing against a position that no one is taking.

Your position was that whites and blacks commit crime at the same rate. But you only included "drug use", which is a major flaw in your argument. Did you actually mean just "drug use" or did you intend to imply that whites and blacks commit "all crimes" at the same rate?

I'm waiting for you to explain how Freddie Gray's criminal history justifies police brutality.  Is lethal violence against unarmed suspects acceptable if said suspect has a rap sheet?

Can you or anyone prove police brutality? From the latest news that I've read, his injury is consistent with a bolt mounted in the van. Did he do it purposely? Did he fall? Did he fall while doing it purposely? You and the black community are "assuming" that it was police brutality when in fact there is no evidence at this point that there was any police brutality. You know what they say about assumptions. This reminds me of when you assumed, without proof, that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon. We all know how that turned out. Yep, NOT GUILTY.....